[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: Speaking with Jody Hill. Now I'm going to read a little bit, a bit of Jody's bio and then we'll. We'll meet the woman herself. So Jody's the founder and director of Custodians of Change, which is a company focused on educating the world towards self sustainability and self worth. She's been on an entrepreneurial journey for over 30 years.
Jody's passion is helping everyone expand their talent, be authentically who they are, and linking learning to serving a purpose outside of themselves, thereby increasing their self worth and their net worth. She loves to think about the things we do daily that can impact the legacy and difference we make long after our time here. She's a Coastie with a slight South African accent after living in South Africa with her husband and family for many years. And the focus of our conversation today is Ubuntu leadership. Jody, welcome to the Culture of Things podcast.
[00:00:58] Speaker A: Thanks, Brendan. That was a cool intro. Hi everyone. So great to be here.
[00:01:02] Speaker B: Jody, it's fantastic to have you on board and funny. I interviewed another Coastie a few weeks ago. Now, Amber and Amber lived up in Karriong, So probably only 10 k's from each other and we're a bit the same, except you're in a different part of the coast down in Avoca and I'm at springfield. Like probably 10k's from each other again. But we can't even spend some time together face to face. It's crazy, right?
[00:01:25] Speaker A: Yeah, it's been what? We're at the end of our 10th week. It's just an interesting time.
[00:01:30] Speaker B: Absolutely. Jodi, this topic today, Ubuntu leadership, it's absolutely fascinating how this has all come about. To me, I'll give the listeners a little bit of a background, but I had not heard of this term Ubuntu leadership ever. And somebody referred me to a movie on Netflix called the Playbook.
Fantastic show. And Doc Rivers, Boston Celtics basketball coach. And this term Ubuntu leadership came up. I'm like, wow, this is awesome. Watched it through and it really resonated with me. And then not too long after I met you and you've got origins in South Africa and you started talking about this Ubuntu leadership and stuff, like, how does the world work? This is crazy. We just had to do a podcast on it, right?
[00:02:13] Speaker A: Absolutely. I mean, it's just such a beautiful way of being. I think that's the best way to describe it. And I think that it's something that everyone can have a piece of, which is what it's about.
[00:02:26] Speaker B: Well, let's get into it, Jody. You tell us what is this term Ubuntu leadership and maybe dig into a bit of the philosophy around it, where it came from.
[00:02:34] Speaker A: Yeah, so. So I might just start with a little bit of background about Ubuntu and its origin and sort of what it is. And. And really it's about a humanity towards others.
And it was. It was something that was verbal. It wasn't written down because a lot of people actually couldn't write, you know, so they used to translate the meaning of Ubuntu. It was something that was lived through verbal storytelling and things like that. So it came from sort of sub Saharan Africa with the Nguni languages. And the word Ubuntu actually comes from the Zulu and Xhosa languages.
And Ubuntu in Causa actually means I am because we are. And so that's so beautiful. And it's that universal bond of sharing that connects humanity. So it's an emphasis on humanness. That's what they sort of call personhood. And. And so it sort of has. During the 1990s, when apartheid ended, Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu, which we are all familiar with, sort of bought that. That ideology to light in post apartheid South Africa as a vehicle that could bring about harmony and cooperation among its many racial and ethnic groups. And I think that that helps a lot because, you know, we kind of think to ourselves it was something that was just lived, but now what. What it then became was something that sort of everybody knew about, you know, And I just think. I have to say one of Nelson Mandela's quotes here was that in Africa there was a concept known, and it was the profound sense that we are human only through the humanity of others, and that if we are to accomplish anything in this world, it will be in equal measure due to the work and achievement of others. And I think that's huge, you know, so. So basically this is linked, of course, to. To really leadership and leadership of the future because it involves that collaboration, the connectedness, and the need for the whole team to go on the journey together. You know, and that. That's the point where they say the individual can only say, I am because we are, and since we are, therefore I am. So things aren't separated. They. They're together. And I think, you know, Desmond Tutu, Archbishop Tutu, sort of said, you can never win a war against terror as long as there are conditions in the world that make people desperate, which is that poverty, disease and ignorance and Ubuntu was about education of, of bringing that education to life, of the way we are as human beings. And it starts with you as a human.
And I think that really helps to, to sort of nail it. But the actual philosophy just to sort of encompass it together, you know, I think was it was about preparing people for life. That's what the Ubuntu philosophy came from. Before we go into that leadership quality and what it meant, it was encouraged early that children would actually be getting prepared for life. So they were encouraged to go on hunting expeditions at a very young age.
And the success would earn their status and respect within a community.
And it was also to help them develop that discipline in their life.
But there are four things, I think that the philosophy to make it really simple. And the first one is respect, you know, and that everyone could show empathy. They used to say everyone can show empathy, like we know how to show empathy. But if you fail to show respect, then it's just futile, you know. And so it was the basis of that. Even a stranger deserved respect. And it was two way respect. And it didn't matter about what race you were from or where you sort of, what wealth, level of wealth you were or where you came from. It actually was about respecting one another. So that was the first part of the philosophy. And then the second part is fellowship. And fellowship is, is about caring to others and it's Umuntu, Ngumuntu, Gabantu. And I had to get my helper, who's from the Ndebele tribe, to help me practice because I was, I didn't want to be disrespectful in the way I say. So I did a little bit of Zulu when I was living in Africa for 16 years. And you know, and it's really hard because in Australia when I grew up, I didn't learn any languages. So it's so hard to learn these languages.
[00:07:20] Speaker B: Can I say I think you've done well. I have no idea whether you have. I think you have.
[00:07:26] Speaker A: You wouldn't know.
[00:07:27] Speaker B: No idea.
[00:07:28] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's beautiful, like the language is just so beautiful to listen to. And I, I mean, she was doing it via voice notes to me because my helper, you know, was, was part of the fellow, the sort of fellowship, the caring towards each other that we had, the relationship we had. And it's about also even that commitment to work. Like she had a commitment to help keep my house in order. And I had a commitment to obviously provide her with what her family needed as well. And here with the Fellowship, it's sort of like a person can only be a human through other human beings.
So. So what I mean by that is that, like, for the philosophy side, a gogo is like a grandmother. In Africa, she's called a gogo. And the elders played a significant role in the education and the raising of children. And, you know, we actually get wiser, supposedly, as we get older, some of us. So if you imagine. Yeah, some of us. So if you imagine the gogo would actually sort of be the one that would help bring up the children of the grandchildren. Sorry. And then the children would go out to actually work and make the money, and they would use the wisdom. So there was a lot of wisdom in that fellowship, and it was about all being involved. And they used to share this fellowship through folk stories and sort of telling stories and singing and dancing and creating that family relation relationship of sort of working together. I mean, even my helper's children would call me auntie. So it wasn't like just your. Your actual auntie. Everyone sort of that helped to raise you was auntie or uncle. So it was very confusing when I first sort of arrived is, well, how many aunties do you have? You know, so. So actually that. That over time, I sort of learned this fellowship. So the first one's respect. The second one's fellowship, the third one is quite closely aligned. And it was about sharing.
So the philosophy is about sharing, so it's about extending to people in need.
So when we go back to a person is only a person through others.
The way that I can explain this and the way that I heard this, and certainly part of the way Nelson Mandela grew up was that the cow was the owner's asset. That was your asset. But the milk was to be shared. So the milk was to be shared amongst the community, but the cow remained your asset. And so what it meant was that we suffer and prosper together.
And there was a system called lobola, which is an engagement of how many cows when you got married. Lobola is sort of what you give to the. You know, there's a negotiation and. And it happens between the families, and everybody sits together and they negotiate how many cows I'm going to get and how many assets I'm going to get, which was sort of like in sort of a stock fell, got birthed out of that, which is like, I guess you could say it's an informal way of a credit union, but much more informal. And that's how people would share and do things together to actually help the growth of the Whole community, you know, so. So it was about helping each other to grow as one, knowing that if anyone sort of got left behind, then everyone would end up suffering in the end. So that was the real philosophy of that.
So the sharing was. That was the third one and the fourth one that I think is really important to pull out of the philosophy was this human dignity.
So the human dignity was that the interest of the human being was to come before those of the economic and political interest.
And so umuntu means person, which is something that's not static, but an ongoing process.
And that human being was sort of respected for who she was, just not not as the status, but rather as a person. And a person was believed to be created in the image of God, which we can align various things across the world to. So those are, for me, the four things that I think are the best things to take away from the Ubuntu philosophy that we can also use in everyday life. I hope that is a really justice example of things.
[00:12:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you've given it huge justice. And thank you for going into that detail. I just want to go back to. So you mentioned two pretty famous names, Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu. From a practical application, things, respect, fellowship, sharing, human dignity, four strong aspects, a really holistic system.
What was it about someone like Nelson Mandela when you were living across there and so you were seeing this stuff firsthand, what was it about him? From a practical element, that he was Ubuntu. He was living this Ubuntu leadership style that we're learning about today.
[00:12:35] Speaker A: So Nelson Mandela was of the idea there was a few really strong things that came out, and he wanted to create a rainbow nation.
So he lived Ubuntu in the sense that he believed that it didn't matter what anyone had done. We were all human beings. And so it was about that humanness and humanity. And that's why he was seen across the world as this global leader, because he had spent so long in sort of jail, you know, and those very people that he was in jail with, he then embraced and forgive because he knew that for anything to move forward, that we had to be connected to each other, and it was part of that journey. And so, you know, that was the Ubuntu spirit that he was taught and in his concept, which I'll get into a little bit now when we go through the model. But basically he was about leading from behind. And it was. The shepherd theory is that no one gets left behind, so the nimble and weak are up at the front and the shepherd leads from behind with his goats or whatever. And it's the same theory as if you think about wolves. You know, in a wolf pack, the alpha actually stands right behind and watches everything that's happening around him.
And he knows when his time is done as well. Which is what Nelson Mandela was about. This is not about me. This is about what's best for this rainbow nation and best for the world to see, you know, of how we can connect to each other. But the weaker would go at the front, then you'd have your sort of stronger ones sitting next in line and then the stronger ones sort of at the back. And then the middle would be everyone else. And the whole concept was that although they felt they had a voice, he was also leading, but from the bottom. So it was like a bottom up approach rather than a top down dictatorship. And that was the democracy that he created. And to. I mean, I was obviously there. I went to his, his house. He was in Houghton, his home, so which is. Wasn't far from where I lived. And my business partner also lives in Houghton. And we sort of went after he passed away and it was just. You could just feel this human.
Even though I wasn't even born in Africa, I felt so connected to wanting to make a difference, to serve, just because of this leader that was just so humble in the way that they, they led the nation and the things that he went through. And Desmond Tutu was right along there with him in a different role, you know, as an archbishop. And so he was also very well known. And the two of them were obviously very close in their friendship. But it was also interesting. I've just been so fortunate to have met some amazing people that are at different levels in South Africa and Africa. Because of the nature of my work, I've got to move around and in that I was doing in South Africa.
And one of the, A very good friend of mine, his dad was very best friends, best friends with Nelson, him and best friends. And he was a white, he was a white South African. That Lazar Sadelski was his name. And Colin Sadelski, his son, who's now in his 70s, is a good friend of mine in business and we've done some work together. And he was talking about his dad and his dad actually took Nelson on for his first job in law. So and they built this beautiful friendship. And Lazar was a little bit older than Nelson and Nelson was there when he went to hospital. And Nelson Mandela just showed what it was like to not have borders around where you're from, what race you are, but rather to embrace you as a human being.
And he lived it. He lived it and he was an example of it.
[00:16:37] Speaker B: Absolutely. A lot in that last statement, just seeing people as human, not for the color of their skin or sexuality or whatever. Do you remember your.
I guess that moment in time that you first came across this concept of Ubuntu and how that sort of started to shape your own thinking around the work that you do in the leadership stuff?
[00:16:59] Speaker A: Yeah. So like I said to you, it was really a strange concept in the sense that I hadn't really read about Ubuntu for many years. It was only in 2017 that I actually did some studies and sort of looked at Ubuntu for the first time, you know, from a theoretical point of view. But I, without knowing it, had actually been connected and living Ubuntu because I was surrounded by it and it was part of what I was. But I think that a defining moment for me was we were on a change job and we were going into a community where people were resisting. It was actually smart metering going into one of the townships in Soweto, and at the time, City Power and Eskom, who are the providers of electricity, was sort of pushing into this. Soweto. Soweto is one of the biggest townships, I think it is the biggest. Actually. It's about 9 or 10 million people just outside of Johannesburg. And it's a very well known one because it's where Nelson also grew up. You know, so he had a home there. And so basically what happened was they were trying to push this smart metering through, and what they were doing was actually just. Just using a dictator kind of role. So it's not to say that because people, you know, are from South Africa, that they were all living Ubuntu. It gets like anything, like any leadership or qualities that we have, they get lost sometimes along the way and we need to find them again.
And we noticed that people were putting these trucks on fires and things like that. So we went in to Soweto to really sort of find out about the people. And at first I was irritated because everybody wants to talk and Ubuntu says that every voice matters.
And I just. It was such a defining moment for me when we went in and I said, well, look, we have to find out what's important to these people, what's of value to them, because we can't connect with them if we don't know what's important to them. And there's certainly no ways they're going to want to pay for electricity, you know, if they. If they don't think that we care, you know, about them. So I went in with lots of enthusiasm with my partner, and suddenly everyone wants to tell you about what's important to them and they want to talk. And this is hours, I tell you, hours of work. And that was a defining moment. For the first time, I understood what Ubuntu really was.
And the reason I say that is because the way that it works is that everyone has an opportunity to speak. The minority have the opportunity to voice their opinion. And it's about really listening to every voice and knowing that within that lies the solution.
And so that can be very difficult in practical terms. And it was very frustrating for me. And it was in my ignorance that I didn't realize the beauty of going slow to actually go fast.
Because, like, Brendan, you were asking me early like, you're a runner. And I'm like, yeah, so I go fast, right? Like, so we used to. You go fast to win the race. And my dad grew up. We grew up on a farm, so we're up early and it's go, go, go. He'd stomp around, get us going. And it was. I grew up thinking if you work hard and you go really fast, that's how you work. So now here I am.
And it was about enjoying the journey. So the way that they work is they sing and dance in between. And this is this long process which is. Which was so different to how I was used to it. It's like, oh, my goodness, this person just is talking, talking, you know, And I just had to stop myself. And my partner said to me, my business partner, who's African, Sotu, which is where it sort of comes from. It's one of the origins. She's from Sothu. And so she said to me, oh, this is Ubuntu. These people are living Ubuntu. And I was like, ok, like, now I'm seeing this is part of the process of getting to a solution. And what happened was because I stopped and relaxed about it, we found out so much information about them that we were able, without any issues, to be able to bring smart meters into a community without any fires, any violence or anything, because we were able to connect what we had heard, what they cared about, what was of value to them, to how this was going to help them even more. So we were able to get that connection. And without listening to them, we would never have found that. And we would have had the same result. That was already happening.
So that was really when it came to life for me, and I realized how it all works. And by the way, Brendan, they have so much fun while they do this. They dance and they sing and they make it an experience.
And so I guess what I love about that is, you know, sometimes we want to we motoring through life. We're so busy that we get nothing done, and we almost just rushing our way through life, and we turn around at the end and we say, oh, what happened? Not with Ubuntu. With Ubuntu, we go slow and we listen. And so that was a huge lesson for me of the birth of it in 2012.
[00:22:34] Speaker B: Sounds like a pretty good place to learn it too. You're actually in the home of Ubuntu.
[00:22:39] Speaker A: Yeah. So grateful. So grateful. But if in saying that, Brendan, I think that when I grew up, there were aspects already sitting here in Australia, you know, there were aspects where my father, you know, talked about respecting your elders, you know, and having that respect for your elders and what that meant.
The difference here is what they are teaching to the children. From a young age, maybe the difference is not to tell you to do it, but to teach you how to be it, how to live it authentically. You know, sometimes we force ourselves, like, force ourselves to have manners or force ourselves to be respectful. So this is about actually being authentic to it, not forcing it.
And I think that was a little bit more depth that I got from understanding it better.
[00:23:32] Speaker B: Jodi, I think that's a good pathway into the model Ubuntu model that you've created. Now, you and I, we've had various conversation over a number of months, and I affectionately now call you the model queen. You are the absolute queen of models. You create models for. You've created models for all sorts of stuff. And hence you being your true authentic self, you have a model for Ubuntu, which you're going to share with us today. I think you sharing that will give us a really strong flavor of application of this and what it's about. So go into that. Let's talk about this Ubuntu model.
[00:24:10] Speaker A: Yeah, so you're so right, Brendan. I mean, you know, I really believe that simplicity is the way for us to.
To have service that's indirect, you know, and a really good leader will actually be able to serve without having to directly speak to everybody all the time, because that's impossible. And what I believe is that models keep it really simple and it allows ripples like so Imagine throwing a stone in the water and it has this ripple effect and it goes layers outside of you. And Nelson Mandela lived and was being with his direct sort of modeling of a rainbow nation, which is through Ubuntu. And what he did is he modeled his direct message and it was so powerful that it actually went across the globe. And I think if leaders can learn to sort of simplify the way that they live their message of what they're creating, they're able to have that ripple effect indirectly. So when Brendan said to do the talk, I thought, goodness gracious, I need to create the Ubuntu model. So it's very early days, but I feel like this will give you a good sense of how you can start to think about how to apply it.
And the sort of motto behind it is that together we move from reflect to act to grow.
So, so that is, is sort of the mtp, the massive transformative purpose of the Ubuntu model that I'm working at. And it was about together we move from reflect to act to grow.
Okay, so. So it's in that, yeah, the.
[00:25:54] Speaker B: You are just keeping me in suspense because you've got to let people know as well. I've not seen this model. You haven't shared it with me either. So this is. I'm hearing it for the first time as our listeners and watches are hearing it for the first time. So come on, can you just get into it, please?
I'm on the edge of my seat.
[00:26:11] Speaker A: Okay, awesome. So the Ubuntu works like this. It's going to work with the steps. So the U stands for understand.
The B is for being. The next Ubuntu is for unite, N for new spirit, T for trust. And the last one is for unconditional love because that transcends everything and transforms.
So the you, I want to just give you a brief thing. So the you means understand. So step one, from a practical application as a leader or as someone that's actually wanting to live it every day, is to know what's most important to people. And that means know people's personal values.
So this is quite unique in the sense that for a long time we've talked about having work, play and sort of, you know, our lives separate, like our well being and our play time and sorry, family play and sort of work have always been separated for many years. You know, we were talking about when you go to work, you work. But with this philosophy, we're talking about knowing the things about the people that are inside our organization, knowing Our family members for who they are and what's most important to them.
So this fits in line with children were educated on the family tree, historical background of the tribe, nation, culture and traditions, and they understood where they came from and who they were. And so in business leadership, it's important that people understand the history and the culture of the organization as well as the business understands the individual values which will give the collective values.
And the reason why I say this is so important, when I was on a massive change project, just from a practical sense of this one, the first thing I wanted to know on this project, and it was 460,000 households that were involved and there was 7,000 people on the project.
And I wanted to know what was most important to these people. So the first thing I did was I checked in on their personal values and within six weeks I didn't remember their names, but I could walk around to different buildings and I could remember what was most important to them. My children are most important to me. And I was able to then have a connection to that person. I knew their face, I knew what they looked like, and there they were. They could be a receptionist all the way to an executive.
And I knew what was most important to them. And that is a very big leadership quality. You need to know the personal, so you need to understand it. And then in return, they need to understand the business and its history and where it came from and the values of the organization. And that way we can get that connection to it. So the first one's understand and I know I need to, I hope that everyone's got that one. The second step is be, which is for being.
Now this is where I was just mentioning the importance of being authentic. And this is this inside out theory, which is to try is to lie and to do is to be true. And I love that because it's a respect for each human. That's where this respect thing came in. So some may be paid more than others or be in a higher position, but we are all human.
So it's about being authentic and it's treating with that two way respect.
Because when you do that, people actually feel cared for. They feel like that you are actually interested in where they're at and who they are. And in that way it actually can come back to you. Because I want to work harder for someone who I know cares about me. So to be authentic in the ubuntu way is to actually live it, not to force it. Because when you force it, people can tell you being fake. You're just doing something because it's the right thing to do. But to be curious and to actually take an interest in the individual seems very slow at first. But to truly be curious is to actually be finding out about them because then they actually want to help you to grow the business. Okay. And there's that mutual respect for each other, no matter what layer you're at. So that's the being part. And I will give an example that I have from when I was running a real estate company in South Africa. For about seven years, I ran a real estate company actually before I went into this. And I was always sort of living this human behavior in my business.
But one of the things we did, we were in Johannesburg downtown, and what we were doing is we were. Buildings were moving from being commercial to residential. So to change form because they were very run down, and what you would find is you'd go into these buildings that were office blocks which didn't have amenities, and they had, you know, thousands of people squatting in them because they had nowhere to go to live in them. And my husband would say, no, you can't go in there because you, you know, they, they will. They will kill you because, you know, this is, this is all they've got. This is their home. And the purpose was to go and negotiate with them, to move them to another location so the building could be fixed up and provide housing, proper housing with proper amenities. And that was kind of part of my role that I played. And I just thought to myself, if my intention is really to serve and to care about them, I think I'll be okay. And I used to go into these buildings and I would negotiate with people that were squatting and we would get to a point where we could move them and actually clean up that building and then provide more housing. And it was this ongoing process.
So that is being. That is really being ubuntu. It is really caring about them no matter what level they're at. So that is step two that we can apply and you can do this in your everyday life. That's why I say it's. Whether it's leadership or in everyday community life, it's about caring for that stranger, you know, and that's how they worked. A stranger cared.
They would care for a stranger, feed them if they needed food. When I talked to you about the cow was the asset, but the milk was the sharing. This is what we're talking about here, sharing and the caring. Okay. As the being. So I hope that is driven with that example I gave From a leadership perspective because what happened was the aim was to clean up the building. The developer wanted to come in, but no one could get the squatters to move because they hadn't gone in and cared about them and seen what was their voice, listen to what that voice was and then work together.
So that's a really good way to understand that if you do that, you get more, not less and everybody wins. It's a win win scenario, but you have to be authentic with it.
[00:33:17] Speaker B: In the hybrid working world, I've seen too many business owners and their businesses suffer because of poor performing employees leading to below average results.
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Don't wait. Sign up now just to again I'm going to get you going to obviously unite and the rest of it very soon. But just the thing that's standing out for me is that just it's almost that flow on like the first one of understanding and learning their stories and that famous line seeking to understand like you need to be able to do that and then that puts you at that next stage of being authentic to being that and being a place to negotiate. In that example you talk about if they don't feel like you care about them as real people and understanding their stories then going to that next phase would be more challenging. I imagine based on what I'm understanding.
[00:34:32] Speaker A: You'Re saying 100% and you can think of your own examples in your own organizations or businesses. When you go in with an intent that you want something, it's something for nothing, gets nothing or something.
It's got to be fair exchange. And the only way it can be fair exchange is you to go in an intent for them to win and not just for you to win. And that's that respect and care that we're talking about. And that is the being authentic.
So not forcing it. Not you know, but you sort of. It's almost like you, you go in with outside you, you showing that you, you're being authentic and you're caring but inside you've got an underlying intention for something for yourself. You know that you need done and you rush it. So this is about the, the alignment of the internal intention that you have with the external Intention that you're driving.
[00:35:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you.
Let's go into unite.
[00:35:30] Speaker A: Yeah. So. Oh, man, unite. So I love this one because.
[00:35:36] Speaker B: Sounds like it's the body and the heart and soul of the model.
[00:35:39] Speaker A: It sort of sits in there, doesn't. I don't know, it's all just beautiful, but.
And it's all new. So for me as well. But it's about, we're all responsible for each other, so if one fails, we all fail. And if one succeeds, we all succeed. So it's that democracy that we're talking about, and unity is where the power lies. And so it's that old saying, you know, two heads are better than one, but in this case, to sort of bring it back and link it to the Ubuntu and then link it into the community. The whole village was responsible to take care of the children.
So let's say someone was walking along and they saw a child doing something they shouldn't be doing in. And they would reprimand the child, and then they would be thanked by the biological parents or the go girl that was looking after them for the service of helping to educate and helping to unite them as a community.
And I've seen that a little bit here with Evoker. You know, sometimes parents will tell you, you know, I've heard some parents saying that they're watching your kids for you. And it's that same thing in the community that I've seen, you know, where they'll say, oh, this one's down doing this. You might want to check in. And they let the parent know. But this is a little bit more wider in the sense that it can even be a stranger. That actually helps to grow the child and to educate the child and to teach the child the things of life with these life experiences. Experiences. And to also create some level of discipline around it. So Unite is working together. You know, it's that collectivism that we're talking about, and it creates discipline and order, actually, because people are all responsible for each other. And they know that if one fails, we all actually end up failing. And if one succeeds, we celebrate together. So sometimes it's even, you know, like to give an award and to say, you got the award on your own is sort of seen as well. No, I didn't. And you'll see people who, Who. Who win an award and they sort of get it. They. They say thank you, but then they'll immediately say, you know, when they receive an award, oh, but thank you to my producer, or thank you to Brendan, who Got me to do this talk, you know, and, and you actually thanking the commune. So this is what, this is. We succeed because of each other working together. And I actually, Brendan, think a little bit about it as systems sort of thinking. I see this part as systems thinking. I love systems thinking. I love looking at the cause effect relationships of things and seeing everything as connected from sort of the macro to the micro. But how it sort of works is they really look after their community and they focus on the self. So if you imagine in a system in your business, the operating environment sits in the middle and it's like a force field around it and you looking after the people that are inside that operating environment.
And then you've got your transactional environment, you know, and then you've got your contextual environment. And I think when we talk from environments, if we can see how all of these things are helping each other and how they're moving around in cause effect relationships, that is how you, you unite it together. You need to see it as a whole system.
And that's why I love to do it. I mean, I drew up a system, we used to do some voluntary work to teach a little bit of Ubuntu leadership with children in schools, because, you know, it's not really formally taught because there hasn't been much written literature on it. And I decided to draw up a system of how the teachers and the principal and the other schools and the community were all connected to the role of this kind of kids really living these things. And that's the system working as one. And I believe that's how you get even more growth from your business, from your education system, from your community.
So unite is important.
[00:39:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Again, really interesting how you mentioned system thinking, because in my research and preparation for our conversation today, I'd never heard of the Linux operating system called Ubuntu. And that came up all over the place. So again, let's not go into that, but I just wonder if some of their thinking came into just what you're explaining there, that whole system thinking and calling one of their operating systems Ubuntu. But anyway, side note.
[00:40:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's funny when we do like sort of social studies or you do your master's or your mba or even the big firms, you know, they all look at systems thinking.
And I just think that this is a wonderful example of it working. You know, like the whole system is kind of. Because they're connecting the dots together and they're saying that it's one system and it starts with the Human being, you know, and it moves from there.
[00:40:39] Speaker B: Well, for this, the first time, going through your model, you're doing pretty well. Jodi, I have to say, I'm loving it.
[00:40:45] Speaker A: Oh, thank you.
So sorry. For a practical tool for. To be able to connect the dots. I love using Imago therapy.
It's sort of quite new. It's in about 60 countries. I am facilitating with Imago. I love it. And it, what it is, it's. It's sending and receiving.
So, so basically you send a message out and you listen with both ears. So it's about having that intensive social network, but it's also the listening of the opinion of others. And to do Imago, what it is, is it's basically a sender and a receiver.
And that's what I like about it because it really is saying that I'm willing to listen to the voices. And I gave the example earlier of when we went into the township and we listened to the voices.
So it's that social network, it's that system. And so it's really about getting that information. And just something I've thought of is Elon Musk.
He talks about that someone on the floor working on the vehicle, like on his Tesla vehicle, is allowed to contact him directly for efficiency because he knows that they know exactly what's going on and he holds them accountable to what do they think they're going to do about the problem that's been raised and to write directly to him.
So. So it's less of that sort of hierarchical kind of. It's only that way. It's more like he's getting more by speaking to that person and he's moving faster.
So. So he uses that. He listens to what they say. So. And holds them accountable to problem solving.
[00:42:23] Speaker B: Let's move on to the end. The new spirit, if I wrote it down correctly.
[00:42:27] Speaker A: Yes, you did.
[00:42:29] Speaker B: Gold star.
[00:42:30] Speaker A: So, yeah, so the new spirit is the spirit where we really get into the leadership and that it's about the king owning his status. And sort of. It's sort of known as the king owns his status, including the powers associated with it, to the will of the people under him.
So the new spirit is. Is about the spirit of the network.
And this for me is. Is also where the fun comes into it. And so I think that environments, you know, sometimes we're so serious and people say, oh my goodness, it's so stressful and I'm so serious. And part of the new spirit is about the sustainability and when we have fun, I love having fun. And you know, I love to have jokes and I love to play games, you know, when I'm sort of doing my work. And I find in that is sort of a spirit that gets created. And obviously in Ubuntu, it's, it's done through storytelling and dance and things like that, you know, and the leadership approach, remember I said earlier, is lead from behind. So this is part of that new spirit. And a leader is nothing without followers anyway.
So if you let the followers go in front, but you're viewing from behind, you can see what spirit is required. And that's what I love, because you've got a wider view. It's almost like when they talk about when they're. When an astronaut goes into space and they look back on Earth and they have the overview effect.
Isn't it funny that it's almost like they're saying from the bottom up, you get it? And we sort of always thought of it as a top down, you know, you view your organization from the top down. What the. What the new spirit is almost in reverse. Look at the back so that you can see how to direct from behind.
And so it's almost the opposite. And I think that's quite nice because it shows that both are relevant. You know, I think top down and bottom up, you know, behind and in front are actually what's going to get you the best results. So a combination in this new spirit. But having fun on that journey is, is part of it. It's great, critical, you know, and I explained that. So. So that's. The new spirit is really enjoying it. And, and they talk in proverbs and analogies. Oh. One of the other important things of the leadership here that I really think was wonderful is they don't just give answers. So it's quite interesting when they're from behind, they, they want you to go and think. So they want each person to have the spirit of wanting to use their mind and to actually think for themselves. And it's, it's sort of about that the entire network, once again of people mattering, sort of all, all sort of coming together, but at the same time it's almost about. It's teaching them how to think. So when it's like a chairman, you know, chairman listens to all these opinions, you know, and imagine we're thinking from behind it. The chairman usually gathers the facts and if he doesn't, like he hasn't heard enough of the positives and the negatives or one side or the other, then they gather more on the positive. So that they can make sure that it's even. And at the end, it's this whole, you know, sort of recency. Last man's words. I love the recency. And they say these wise and profound things. Why?
Because they've had the spirit of togetherness and gathering everything together, you know, first.
And then when they speak, people go, oh, my goodness, that was such a great summary or whatever. And so in this case, it's like a proverb or analogy of how they put it together, which sends the individual away to be inspired to do more, to think more, to sort of take their commitment to their work ethic more seriously and to see how it fits together with the whole team winning.
So that's sort of that new spirit.
[00:46:35] Speaker B: It sounds like, just summing that up a little bit. It sounds very much that, you know, taking that view of the leader's responsibility is to get good at asking good questions. If they do that, then they can have that recency scenario that you explained.
[00:46:49] Speaker A: Beautiful. Yes. Oh, that's. Well, you just summarized it in one sentence, Brendan. Well done.
[00:46:54] Speaker B: Well, I'm able to sit and listen to you actively, hopefully, Jody.
[00:46:59] Speaker A: But it's just that quality of the question determines the quality of the answer and the simplicity of it 100%. Yeah. So that's good. So. So trust is the next.
[00:47:09] Speaker B: Yeah, trust would seem like a pretty big part of all this stuff.
[00:47:13] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And as you can see, it needs to sort of have. Each piece needs to be lived of. Of the model. So it works in. In phases or steps, if you may. And, you know, without the previous steps, it would be impossible to have any trust. And trust is, Is. Is where. And in Ubuntu, how it's seen is like this. They are helping them to trust in themselves first and foremost. So every individual employee in your organization to trust in themselves, to not only sit in the known, this is what it's about, but to have the confidence to step into the unknown.
And I love this because, you know, it's about right, you know, realizing that education and learning and even moving through the neck, the layers of your work, you know, your sort of work story, let's call it. I like to call it a story, and you're growing in it and that it's a continuous journey throughout your life. You know, sometimes we think, well, we're just learning. We go and we. We study for what we want to do. But this encourages the continuous journey of trusting to continue to learn and moving. So this whole process is about being able to. Want to step in, to the unknown and not be fearful of it. To actually say I'm willing to give this a shot and keep having those evolutions instead of having a revolution. And that automatically helps the business and the person that I think of globally when I think about this because I like to link it back to some of the global, best global leaders that I know is Ray Dalio, which is Bridgewater. He started in his flat, his business and became. He went in and Bridgewater was in the top five Fortune 500 and, and today he's very well known and he did something very unique that no one else was doing. And he had principles and I align this and what he said is radical truth and transparency was one of his principles.
Radical truth and transparency. So the hard conversations being knowing that you are able to say something and, and instead of having sort of a reaction, having reflection and reflective awareness, you know, being able to have that reflective awareness moving from that hind brain of instinct and impulse into the prefrontal cortex and being able to use the forebrain for what it's there for, which is to be able to match all those associations.
And going into the unknown, stepping into it says I'm willing to step into my next level of chaos, even though I may not know. And the in Ubuntu, they do that with the children. They teaching them how to have the confidence to trust, to move into that unknown. And that's why I think this is so suitable for business as well. Because it's about stepping into that next level of your growth and being willing to. To take on that next level of chaos and challenge so that you can grow personally, but the organization can grow with you as well.
[00:50:21] Speaker B: It's really that vulnerability piece again, isn't it? Like putting yourself out there, give it a shot. It may fail, but you've got to put yourself out there. You've got to be vulnerable. And that's what builds trust.
[00:50:32] Speaker A: Exactly. Oh, you very clever. So it's, you know, I always say that trust never gets tested until one is vulnerable. And PwC Global have a new equation right now.
The new equation sits around trust and sustained outcomes. I'm working with PwC Africa right now. So what's interesting about when you listen to that is that when trust, you know, when there's a problem, that's when trust gets tested. And the sustained outcome are the little things that everybody's doing to help the organization to have that sustainability. And I think trust is such a sort of misunderstood thing and it only is ever going to be tested when there's that vulnerability or when there's a problem, and that's when you can see the value of it, or when you're stepping into unknown.
And it's about trusting yourself to know that you're going to go into your mind and you're going to think about things and you're going to find solutions yourself as an individual, in your family, in your community and in your workplace environment.
So that's what you're encouraging with this, you know, as a leader. Each individual.
[00:51:48] Speaker B: Let's move on to the final U in Ubuntu. Unconditional love.
[00:51:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
Wow. Well, unconditional love is the balancing and the synchronous of positive and negatives coming together, you know, and it's a. It's a. Unconditional love is, is finding the meaning, which is the mean. And we look for the mean because the mean is where maximal growth occurs.
And that can only occur with unconditional love and gratitude. So what I love about Ubuntu is that what it's looking to do, it's looking for human beings to actually have that gratitude and that growth and that connection.
And, you know, that. Well, I think of the word wealth with, with all of this, the wealth, you know, from an etymology point of view, I love studying words. It's one of my favorite things. And wealth means wheel. And actually what it was, it was, it sort of wheel, W, E, A L. So it was well plus wheel. And that was wealth back then. And it was sort of three layers to it. And it was about wealth, yes, money, but welfare and well being.
So, you know, if someone's sick, you know, they can't obviously function and have wealth. And so the result of living this Ubuntu model is to actually create true wealth, which is the welfare not just of yourself, but of everyone.
All human beings. It's the wealth as a money perspective, because we know we need to make money for the organization to grow. So it's having accountability to growing that wealth as well, you know, to making money and to providing a service and being paid in fair exchange for it. And that's the layers of how great a service you can provide indirectly. Which is why I said initially as a leader, you know, you. If once you're at unconditional love, you're in your best mode, you're at the meme, so you're having your straightest route, you're getting your light bulb moments towards your vision, and in that moment you're able to, to lead everybody to create that wealth and then the well being. Is we have a vehicle as a human being that we've been given and we, we only have this vehicle for a very short period of time.
So to look after the vehicle puts us in a position to be able to grow our organizations and to continue to lead them in the way that we need to best. Because if one is sick, then it doesn't matter how much money we've got, that nothing's going to fix that. And the same goes is if we are healthy, but we don't have money, then we also cannot grow in our influence in the world. And so unconditional love is the quickest route. And that is the state of gratitude, not pseudo gratitude, where you say thank you once again because you have to. But true gratitude, which is that mean it sits in the middle, okay. And it's where you focused on your pathway to your vision.
So that's what I believe that Ubuntu sort of brings out and, and it brings out other things too. But you know that you can relate this to different kinds of leadership style, transformational leadership, servant leadership, you know. But what I like to say is when you get to unconditional love at the end of this model, you will know which style of leadership is required for the well being, the wealth and the welfare of all. At that moment in time, you will able to be in as a leader in your prefrontal cortex, you will be thinking, you will be in your intuitive state rather than your impulse and instinct state, and you will be able to make that call as to what is the type of leadership that is required for the wealth, welfare and well being of all.
So I think that sort of sums it up.
[00:55:41] Speaker B: That's some. That sums it up perfectly and well, I would say almost perfectly.
Flowing onto that is just then that is the I am because we are part. That's where it all flows through to, isn't it? Like you've just brought that together so nicely and like you are a model queen. That is unbelievably impressive. I feel like I've got. There's a couple of other questions, but I feel like I have no questions about the model because you've summed it up so well. You've given the examples that we can go back and relate to. So, you know, to say you did that just a couple of days ago, that's very impressive, Jodie, I have to say. Well done.
[00:56:16] Speaker A: Oh, thank you. Thanks. Well, I think that, you know, when you start to realize that you have a deep intent for serving others and Brendan, that's you as well. Your intent is to really, you know, bring us to life myself. And so I'm super grateful for you because, you know, you actually challenged me and I thought, well, goodness, I better create this.
[00:56:40] Speaker B: You better do what you keep hassling me to do.
Get your model sorted out.
[00:56:46] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. So. So, you know, that other surface and, and being able to bring the Ubuntu concept is actually a privilege, you know, to sort of bring it to life a little bit because it's very verbal based, it's not written based and it's. It's about being. So it's being lived and taught as just something that you do in your life, that you be. And I think sometimes it's like, you know, we get told, you know, less sort of rushing and doing and more just being present in your life. And that's what I see with this.
And, and through that you grow more.
[00:57:22] Speaker B: The other exciting thing, which is more the practical, logical side, like, this is what you've just explained and gone through that. That is thought leadership stuff. Like, I've done a fair bit of research, you know, even just through YouTube and a couple of other texts and stuff like that around Ubuntu leadership, like what you've shared today, I've not seen anywhere. This is, this is a global first, Jody. I'm telling you, like, I'm. I'm saying that with a smirk on my face, but in all Syria, this is a global first.
[00:57:47] Speaker A: Oh, well, I mean, I've actually sort of linked into a couple of my friends in Africa who sort of leaders there, because.
[00:57:58] Speaker B: Well, there you go. I am. Because we are.
[00:58:00] Speaker A: Yes. And I told them that I'm expecting some good criticism out of this as well. Well, which, which, which allows something to grow. You know, I love criticism because it allows me to either clarify what I'm saying, so it gives me more clarity in my own mind and to sort of clarify it to someone, or it sends me on a growth journey to say, I need to look a bit more at this, you know, and push myself to grow. So, so I've challenged myself and sent it to them. So let's probably when they wake up, they're like, no, no, no, no, Jodie, you need to swap this around.
[00:58:36] Speaker B: Well, as you said, it's all it'.
But you mentioned something a little bit earlier in the model about having fun, you know, really important to have fun. So can you give us your best mum joke at the moment? Is that too much on the spot Mum joke? Surely you've got. We have dad jokes so surely you've got mum joke if you love having fun.
[00:58:54] Speaker A: No, I just play games with them. I just.
[00:58:57] Speaker B: Oh, that's the fun. Okay, okay.
[00:58:59] Speaker A: You know, my dad used to tell all the jokes and we used to sit and laugh at the jokes and always said that I can never remember jokes.
[00:59:05] Speaker B: I'm terrible.
[00:59:06] Speaker A: And my husband does that. It actually. And I can never remember actual jokes, but I love doing games and, you know, sort of applying the concept of having fun, which is why I love to play with my kids in some of the games that they love, you know, as well, you know, just sort of bringing out that child within. But that's sort of my version. I'm terrible with jokes.
[00:59:26] Speaker B: Fun's really important to have, and it's a. It's certainly a key element of learning, there's no doubt about it.
Jodie, I want to just conscious of time, so I want to start, you know, wrap this up. And I always like to ask my guests this sort of final question around what's had the greatest impact in your own leadership journey?
[00:59:43] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks, Brendan. So definitely I thought it was worthwhile to mention that on the 2nd of February, 2020, we arrived back in Australia and the idea was that we would do a test year, you know, and we brought the kids back here. So the kids are born in South Africa, our children.
Daniel's 13 and 10. And my husband actually ended up going back to South Africa before the lockdown, and he got stuck last year in South Africa for six months.
So I was here in the central coast, a new place, five hours drive away from family members and not knowing anybody.
And I was already had two full work trips booked back to South Africa that I was no longer able to go to and consequently haven't been back to South Africa since, or Africa for that matter. So the impact it had from a leadership perspective was I, first of all, was very anxious of how am I going to connect, because I was then asked to do things virtually, and I know that everyone's at least gone through this a little bit, where you've had to do some kind of virtual meeting or zoom hangouts like webexs and things like that. And that's been, for a lot of people, your new form.
And I got thrown into the April, so the March sort of. We started in the lockdown, and in the April for the first time. I ran 16 webinars that month back to Africa to about 10 countries at the time. It was. It was. And I was petrified because I thought, how am I going to hear what they're saying, and how am I going to create that connection, the Ubuntu? And what happened was because I couldn't even see them, you know, I could only see myself. So suddenly I've got a reflection of myself. So it's like talking to yourself, not easy. And, and the thing that I realized is that connection has no barriers. And I kind of think of it like an SMTP server where it gets. It gets decoded and processed. And if I was to get really present in that webinar and I was having that unconditional love and gratitude for the opportunity to still be able to serve all the way from Australia, across all the waters, and got really grateful for it, I actually knew that I could serve them. And I had an unbelievable impact, more so than ever, because I would get goose pimples as I was speaking and tears of inspiration, which let me know that I was on track with what I was saying and that I was having this service without even having the face to face connection.
So unconditional love and presence and gratitude for the situation that you are in allows you to really connect to human beings in a completely different way, in a way that it's not physical. And that for me was the most powerful thing it had the result of that. So that's been a big transition.
[01:02:45] Speaker B: Yeah, that's brilliant, Jodie. And thank you for sharing that story with us today. You've been, I have to say, you've been very present and, you know, sharing your time with us today as well. And your articulation of the model. Absolutely fantastic. Ubuntu. And, you know, this is what the focus of our conversation today was, Ubuntu leadership, Ubuntu philosophy. You've absolutely nailed that without a shadow of a doubt in my book. So look, we'll put all of the ways to contact you in the show notes and so people can contact you when they need to. The show will be out in about a month's time on YouTube, once we edit and take out a few of the bits and pieces, faux pas that I may have. But I want to say a massive thank you again. It's so great to have you part of my network. So lucky that we've met and had some fantastic conversations. You got unbelievable energy. I love it. We're having a chat with you. We, we seem to chat about all sorts of things. So once again, thanks for coming on our show today. You've been a fantastic guest on the Culture of Things podcast.
[01:03:42] Speaker A: Thank you so much, Brendan. Thank you to you and Mark and the producer and your team for organizing us and for bringing our voices to the world, you know, so that we can help serve others. I think your service is phenomenal. Thank you.
[01:03:56] Speaker B: Absolute pleasure. Thank you, Jody.
When you put yourself out into the world, you'll come across many special people.
Jody Hill is one of those people. Jody's an Aussie with a love for South Africa and an accent to match. When I first met her, we talked about numerous things, particularly around leadership and the work that she does. I was fascinated and inspired by her passion for her craft and the knowledge she has to go with it. When I learnt she has some background with Ubuntu leadership and Ubuntu philosophy, there was no question at all about having her on the show.
I am because we are. That is the Ubuntu way. I am a better person for having Jody as part of my world. These were my three key takeaways from my conversation with Jody. My first key takeaway, humility, is the leadership game changer. The difference between a good leader and a great leader is their level of humility. Humility is best defined by the quote from C.S. lewis.
Humility is not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less. Think of the global leadership stature of Nelson Mandela, Gandhi or Mother Teresa. The single biggest value that made them great was their level of humility.
My second key takeaway, Leaders take the time to understand.
They'll take the time to learn what's important to people. They'll take the time to learn their stories, to understand people's personal values. This is what builds a connection and develops relationships. And it's free to do. Just take the time to understand.
My third key takeaway, leaders unite people. They create and live an environment where we're all responsible for each other. They believe if one fails, we all fail, and if one succeeds, we all succeed.
Rallying people behind a collective goal is the basis for teamwork, which drives unity. Leaders know this and use it to unite people.
So, in summary, my three key takeaways, Humility is the leadership game changer. Leaders take the time to understand and leaders unite people. If you want to talk culture, leadership or teamwork, or you've got any questions or feedback about the episode, you can leave me a comment on the socials or you can leave me a voice
[email protected] thanks for joining me. And remember, the best outcome is on the other side of a genuine conversation.
