[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the Culture of Things podcast. I'm your host, Brendan Rogers and today this is episode 63 and I have a chap on the other side of the video called Michael Crutcher. Michael, how are you, buddy?
[00:00:15] Speaker B: I'm very well, thanks Brendan. Thanks for having me on the podcast, mate.
[00:00:19] Speaker A: It's a pleasure. You and I go a fair way back, which we'll get into a bit soon. And I'm going to give the listeners a bit of an understanding of your bio because you're a pretty credible dude. But what's this background? You've got a few dodgy North Channels jerseys up in your background there.
[00:00:33] Speaker B: This is the jersey of the of the premiers as of a few days ago, the mighty Norse Devils Brendan in the Queensland cup rugby league competition. So you can see our logo at the top of those jerseys. For my business, 55 columns. Our first premiership in 23 years. So I've been able to protect my voice just enough to be on the podcast today. But it's been a good fun week. 23 year drought broke and say thank goodness for that.
[00:01:01] Speaker A: Well, congratulations, mate. I did watch some of the highlights in preparation for the interview. Looked like a fantastic game. A few nail biting bits at the end for you.
[00:01:09] Speaker B: It was nail biting. I tell you, I think I aged 20 years in those 80 minutes. But I think too because it's been a journey of this one in particular, four years over a lot of things. And anyone who's watching who understands, I'm sure there's lots of people who've been through business goals or sporting goals and looking to actually get something done, done and achieved something. And when it comes down to something like the last seven or eight minutes and it could go either way, there's sometimes a feeling of how much hinges on it. And you try not to put yourself in that place but to be able to get through those seven minutes and get over the line, whether you're in sport, business, whatever, there's a great feeling of relief there because sometimes you can peek over the other side and think how far you've come and that you may not get there the goal you want. But yeah, I think that's. It's a mixture of relief, to be honest. I watched the replay of the grand final the other day and I still felt tense. I still wanted us to win even though we'd already won. That was that tense. But I think when you're so invested in something, you tend to ride those things so strongly. So wrap for all the players involved.
[00:02:14] Speaker A: Too many Too many beers before the game, mate. You don't remember the game or what?
[00:02:19] Speaker B: Well, I don't drink, I don't drink at all before, before a game or during a game. So it was, it was the.
[00:02:27] Speaker A: Even when you're not playing.
[00:02:29] Speaker B: That's right. I still don't, I still. The moment a game finishes, I'm still sober, I stay like that. My role as club president there and just, you know, in awe of the players and what they put their bodies through. Boy, they, they, they sacrifice a lot. So rap for them. Most importantly.
[00:02:47] Speaker A: Sounds like you're setting a good standard, mate, at present of the club. So look, we will, we will unpack a little bit of that North Jersey, the North's journey today because there's a lot to be learned from that for people listening and those leaders out there learning bits and pieces.
But just to make sure we let people know that you've done a few things in your life. I'm going to read a bit of your biography, mate. So be patient, sit comfortable, take a listen to some of the stuff you've actually achieved.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: Make some stuff up if you have to. I'll come in your hands.
[00:03:17] Speaker A: I have done, mate. It's all right. We always try and make people sound even better than what they are.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: Outstanding.
[00:03:23] Speaker A: So Michael's the founder and CEO of 55 Comms. He started 55 Comms in 2013 to help clients tell their stories in a rapidly changing world. He's helped clients of all types, from listed companies to government departments, religious institutions, schools not for profit organizations and professional sports teams. At 35, Michael was appointed the editor of the Courier Mail which is Queensland's largest source of news and information and served in the role from 2010 to 2013.
Before becoming the editor, he had stints as the newspaper's deputy editor, chief of staff and investigations. Editor Michael set up and ran the newspaper's award winning investigative unit, receiving a Queensland Media Award. Michael's experience across all levels of print and digital media, across all platforms and at executive level is rare among Australian journalists. His extensive experience as a sports writer included coverage of two Olympic games and six Australian cricket tours overseas. Michael's a regular media commentator for outlets including ABC radio. Outside of 55 comms, as we mentioned, he's director of North Devils Rugby League Football Club and president of St. Patrick's College foundation at Shorncliffe. The focus of our conversation today is leadership observed and actioned. Michael, that sounds pretty good.
[00:04:45] Speaker B: Right, we'll leave it there. Hey Brendan, that's. I'm only going to let myself down. Now, I've been very lucky. I've been very fortunate over the years to have a lot of experiences that came through my profession and gave me access to very interesting situations, but very interesting leaders, especially through sport, then into politics. So leadership's always been something I've really focused on and been helped along with. And as you said, age 35, I was editing a metro newspaper and I had people 30 years older than me in my newsroom. So I've been very lucky to have experiences, to see things and to be able to try and put those into practice for better or for worse and have people help me out of bother it many times.
[00:05:27] Speaker A: Yeah, mate, absolutely. I have to say again, we've known each other for many, many years, although we haven't been in contact for a long time. We went to the same primary school. You're a year above me, so that means you're slightly smarter than me, I suppose. But then you went off to some dodgy school called St. Patrick's I went to a great school called Nudgee College and now we've reconnected back again. Our parents are very, very friendly. So we've sort of. I don't know how you feel about this, but I sort of feel through our parents and I know unfortunately your father passed away years back, but through our parents relationship, it's funny how we've got a handle on the kid's journey. Like I've always sort of known what you're up to and what's happening and really loving the journey of where you've gone and where you've taken, taken your life. Have you felt the same?
[00:06:13] Speaker B: Oh, the look, the mother's network and where we grew up, Brendan is like nothing else. I still feel as though I know what the Rogers clan are up to, what so many other families are up to. It's like we never left.
So yeah, I reckon we're really for fortunate to have that network. But I tell you what, we got away with nothing when we were younger because if someone put a foot out of line, someone's mum would know and it would be brought into line. So yeah, grateful for it now always kept me very honest. But yeah, it's a great connection to have that connection to our childhood. And you know, I've mentioned off air, but Trent Dalton, who some of your listeners will know from Boy Swallows Universe, grew up in our suburb in the 1980s and chronicled in that book that sold more than 600,000 copies, now chronicled our suburb where we grew up in which is quite unique. And to have that part of the suburb shown to different parts of the world has been fascinating to see. So yeah, I love our background and we'll always cherish that.
[00:07:17] Speaker A: Let me test you mate. Do you know, you know how they call themselves? The Possums?
[00:07:20] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:07:21] Speaker A: So they're probably the original mothers group, aren't they, these people. So do you know what possum stands for?
[00:07:27] Speaker B: No, I.
[00:07:28] Speaker A: Come on, give it a crack.
[00:07:29] Speaker B: I'm sure I've been told. Is it parents of something People of.
[00:07:34] Speaker A: Similar situations and under matured seniors.
Really?
[00:07:41] Speaker B: That's ingenious.
[00:07:42] Speaker A: I did have to check in with mother.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: That's outstanding. I might have some work for some of those bright minds.
[00:07:49] Speaker A: Isn't it fantastic?
[00:07:51] Speaker B: I think you can't underestimate the values of those friendships. I still look at those and think how, you know, our suburb was a rookie suburb, it was a new suburb and out of that comes so much opportunity and so many. I guess no one sort of had any expectations on them and it was a new suburb and out of that becomes. I mean we spoke about or fair about Deborah Riley. Deborah who went to our school, who won four Emmy awards in a row for her work as a production designer on Game of Thrones. So out of those suburbs that are new suburbs comes so much activity, energy and excitement. And we were very lucky to be in that suburb when we're younger with, with the parents that, that we have.
[00:08:32] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely mate. I couldn't agree more. So look like you did on the episode with Deb Riley when you interviewed her. Hi mum. Here's your opportunity. Hi mum and dad. Hi Mum.
[00:08:41] Speaker B: Hello Mrs. Rogers. Hello Mr. Rogers. Hi Mum. How you going? It'll always be Mr. Rogers and Mrs. Rogers. I know that I will say John and Sharon, but hey sel days it's still Mr. And Mrs. So hope everyone's well. Hi all your possums.
[00:08:55] Speaker A: That's the next thing, right? A massive shout out to all those possums. I couldn't agree more. I mean really for my own personal journey, I mean the value of. I didn't realize it at the time and you know, we're mature age citizens or we're mature people now Michael, so we appreciate these things. But like you said, the value of relationships is important. I think that's one thing I've really garnered from that, I guess from my parents and their involvement in the relationships I had in those early days. Starting a school in a new suburb. I always say the relationships determine your success and failure. So those Quality relationships are so important.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: I agree. And I've seen some of that with some of the athletes we've worked with over the years and I guess sometimes we're sort of lucky. You take it for granted, those sort of networks and those families and all those different ties. And I've worked with some athletes who've had nothing like that, some athletes who left home at age 9, for instance, because home wasn't a safe place for them. So, yeah, I'm always very grateful for that and mindful it's not everyone's experience and yeah, we were blessed.
[00:10:00] Speaker A: Absolutely, mate. Look, let's dive in. We've had 10 minutes of preamble and talking everyone else up. We spoke you up for a little bit. Let's get into some stuff. So, mate, you alluded to before, you've worked with and had the opportunity to sit alongside many leaders, political sporting leaders all around the world, to be honest. So just give us a bit of flavour of, I guess, some of those leaders that you've been close to and maybe what stands out in some of those experiences for you.
[00:10:28] Speaker B: I started as a cricket writer at age 25. So as a cricket writer, I would travel with the Australian cricket team through the summer and also to different overseas tours. So we would be on the same plane, same hotels, bit of different era to now in the sense that social media wasn't as prevalent as it is now, but, you know, and just working through a situation where Steve Waugh was the first captain, first captain I sort of encountered and first. First leader he was. I mean, he was playing Test cricket when you were at IRA Primary School. So I first covered Stephen towards the end of his career. And probably one of the most significant leaders that I covered as a cricket writer is Stephen was the sort of leader who was quite inspirational, a leader who didn't compromise on the standards that he expected, but at the same time he managed to be a leader who also was so supportive of his players, particularly those players who might be on the fringe. I mean, it's not often you see those leaders who are, you know, I think one of his books was called no Compromise, and that was Stephen. His standards were not to be. To be broken, but he was also very encouraging. I know Matthew Hayden, one of my favourite players that I covered, Queensland batsman who go on to be one of Australian cricket's greatest batsmen. You know, Matthew was a guy who valued Stephen's arm around him many times, a hard guy like Matthew, he had a leader who still recognized that he needed support, particularly at a delicate time in his career. So Stephen was, he was tough on journeys. I mean, I had Stephen, you know, tell me a few times that he didn't, he didn't agree with what I, what I'd written, but that was part of what he did. He was doing that for his team. And in the end Stephen had respect as well. You could, you could earn Stephen's respect. So I guess that period for Australian cricket was Stephen wore, followed by Adam Gilchrist as an interim captain, Adam Gilchrist a wicketkeeper who took over when Stephen was injured for a test, followed by Ricky Ponting who was another one like Stephen, who was a younger player who came through. But three really different leaders in a short space of time. And I guess for me that was a glimpse into the fact that all three are rated highly as leaders. Adam Gilchrist, an underrated leader who was probably a reluctant leader, but a very good one. And I always thought that Adam could have been a long term captain just wasn't something he particularly cherished. So that was a great example for me to see how different styles of leadership could work and could bring out the best in people, but in different ways. So I guess it was a lesson that there was no, you know, set format to be a leader. You had to be a leader in your own way, but you still had to get people to follow. As one political person told me very early in the piece, you can't be a leader if no one's following. And that's great advice on the political side.
[00:13:18] Speaker A: So again, you've spent time with leaders, prime ministers on both sides of politics. So what stood out on the political side, given that you just shared a bit of sort of what stood out on the sporting side? Were there any differences?
[00:13:31] Speaker B: Yeah, big differences. The cricket captains that I covered closely, all very big team players, all extremely big team players.
I think my observation as a newspaper editor and working with political leaders. So look, I, you know, I would regularly get phone calls from prime ministers, premiers, I would speak with them face to face, quite regularly. I mean, the Courier Mail newspaper is the biggest news outlet in Queensland. At the time I was editing it was the third highest selling daily newspaper in the country.
So it was seen to have influence. And obviously because you do that job, you come into contact with politicians regularly. Very different, the political leaders to the sporting leaders. I never saw the same amount of, say, teamwork as such. It was much more, I guess, focused on issues or egos and uncertainty at different times. So I couldn't put a blanket over any of those as being Very similar. The leaders that I covered, they were leaders who were. When I was editor, we went through a bunch of prime ministers in Australia. Kevin Rudd, Tony Abbott, Julia Gillard were all prime ministers while I was editor of the paper. Three completely different individuals from my viewpoint. Kevin Rudd, probably the most prolific in terms of his contact. Tony Abbott, very different to that, and also was Julia Gillard. So I guess what I learned from political leaders was they weren't to me, as straight up as the sporting leaders were. So, for instance, I'd have to say to them at different times, look, I know you're pushing the particular line you want to push, but it's my job as an editor to actually question you and pick you up on things that we may not believe to be the same. And it's also our job to work with our readers. And that was the most important thing for me as an editor. My job was to ensure that our readers got the news that they needed and got it in a way that we tried to break it down and to look through things for them. And so I must say, when I finished in newspapers, and I won't mix it, one of my highlights was I didn't have to deal with politicians again in that relationship. There were some wonderful politicians I worked with on both sides, but there was also some politicians who I thought were less than honest. They were not leaders of people. And in the end, the audience sorts them out. Because there's one thing that audiences do, they get it. Okay. People sometimes like to say that audiences are stupid or, you know, voters are stupid. They're not. If you underestimate audiences, you do so at your peril. Audiences get it. They can see through phonies. They understand, you know, people who are honest with them or are decent people.
And that's a hallmark of, I think, Australia now. It's changed a bit with social media. There's no doubt that social media has given voters, consumers, whatever you like, more confidence. They've got far more confidence than they used to have. The power now rests with the consumer. That's a given. That's changed the dynamic and that's made politicians need to be even more on top of their game than they had previously. So, yeah, that's a broad summary, Brendan. I think the sporting leaders were far more straight up than our political leaders were, for whatever reasons.
[00:16:50] Speaker A: Let me put you in a difficult position. Maybe I'm not sure you choose to answer this question or not, but let me phrase it in a way that if there was one on a sporting context, that I guess most resonated with you and what you felt was the style of leadership that you wanted to exude and you really valued and also on the political side. So one from each side of the fence. Who would that be or who would they be?
[00:17:14] Speaker B: Oh, look, I had a lot of time for Ricky Ponting as a leader. I mean, I think our birthdays are six weeks apart, so we're fairly similar in age. But to me, I always liked the fact that Ricky Ponting had had his rough times.
He had learned a lot. He was in the. In the Australian team from age 19. He was unbelievable talent, far more talented than I'll be in my field. But Ricky had to go through some pretty tough times, you know, late night incidents, et cetera. And when he came in to be leader, he was just like a guy who was extremely comfortable in his own skin. Ricky didn't try to be anything that he wasn't. He was who he was and that was the leader that you got, whether you liked it or not.
So I quite admired Ricky for that. I like the way that he captained his team and I still see him now as a coach and he's currently coaching in the Indian Premier League. And he's a very good coach as well, because that's just Ricky. He was brought up in Launceston. You know, I don't know how Ricky went at school, I don't know how he was academically, But Ricky was street smart, but had a great affinity with people, and that's what I liked about Ricky. I look, from a political viewpoint, that's a really good question, actually. I've never thought about that. I'll tell you one leader who wasn't a leader for long, who I've always had time for, was an opposition leader in Queensland called John Paul Langbroke, who was still in the state Parliament. Now, I think John Paul Langbrooke would have been a very good premier of Queensland. And I was sorry for him. He didn't get the chance to do that. He was a guy who was a leader who sort of didn't change much in a person. He's good company. John Paul Langbroke, and he didn't change too much as a leader. And in politics, to me, that's difficult. You don't often see many people in politics who are able to sort of maintain their normal personality. So I always thought JP was someone who I thought was interesting, who should have had a longer leadership career, but didn't. And look from the labor side of things, there was a couple of very, very good leaders in labor, but they were probably more ministers, people who didn't exactly become leaders of their party. But I think they were ministers who work particularly well with their constituents and also within their broader party and that labor should have probably elevated to be leaders. I won't mention them only because they'd probably whack me over the head if I did. But I just. I don't want to embarrass them with it. But I saw within a couple of that, and there's a couple of labor of those guys I'm still in contact with now I'm still in contact with. And I really think they were. They're upstanding leaders. One of the things that I've really enjoyed over the last few years was also the rise of the. Of the female.
And to get that different perspective. And I think that's been something that particularly politics needed. Now, whether you agree with the politics or not, I think the rise of the female leader over the last few years has been fantastic. And I've enjoyed that, whatever the politics. And it's hard to have those debates without people wanting to break it down. But on leadership, I think that some of them have done extremely well and have been a great addition to our ranks.
[00:20:08] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a great point on the people you've mentioned, but on the female side, in respect to that, does anything stand out specifically for you around the patterns of qualities around a male style versus the patterns around. Maybe you see more in the female style.
[00:20:25] Speaker B: It's a great question. It started for me with Julia Gillard. Now, everyone told me how good a person Julia Gillard was as a human. I didn't get to see that side of Julia Gillard, which I sort of wished I could have. I thought Julia Gillard was.
To be honest, I didn't feel as though there was ever a conversation that sort of connected on a human level. It was always sort of conversations that were more between prime ministers and editors. Sometimes you've got to show some humanity. But people who I rate very highly have always praised her for being one of the best people that you'll ever hang out with.
So, look, I saw Anastasia Palagz when she was an opposition leader. I think seven MPs Anastasia Palaj brought with her, I think the leader who never expected to really be a leader. And I think that helped her immensely as she came through. She's no one's fool at all, but I think she was genuinely someone who didn't go out in the early days seeking that. And she had to Work really hard as a leader of one of the smallest parties in Australia and Queensland political history. So I enjoyed seeing that side of Anastasia. And I always found her very pleasant company, I must admit. And one leader who I'd like to have got to know, who I don't know at all is watching is Gladys Berejiklian from New South Wales, who's no longer.
I've always quite liked what she's done. You know, I say this sitting in Brisbane, but not being led by her in particular, but I find her quite interesting. So I just think that women bring to it an ability to not be seen as being as combative. And in the end, I just think we switch off and we have combative politics. I know I do. You know, we don't carry on that way in our own businesses and other businesses. I think women in the last 10 years in Australia have brought with them as leaders, ways to get things done without being so combative. I know. Who knows what happens behind the scenes? But to me, it's a refreshing change. And like I said before, audiences get it. I don't need to have their heads whacked over the top with something or fights between politicians. I mean, change the channel, let's move on. But it's been an interesting era in politics and one that I obviously not following as closely as I used to have to follow. And for that I'm grateful. So it gives me a different opinion, I guess, to look at it now.
[00:22:40] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely, mate. It is an interesting one and you have a very insightful and interesting perspective, given that you've seen some of the inner workings. But look, politics and conversation. Probably for another time, I would say I want to go back to the punting scenario because he's affectionately known as Punter, his nickname. You're a bit of a punter. So it sounds like you've got a bit of favouritism there, mate, as to why you picked Ricky.
[00:23:02] Speaker B: Yeah, but I think Ricky was so practical. Ricky was a cool head.
He. He does. Doesn't mind a punt, especially on the greyhounds. But I think the thing I really admired about Ricky was he would play the odds. He didn't care about convention. If he thought that he could do something and it would work, he would do it. And I love that he backed himself to do things and he was supremely talented as a batsman. Yeah, but that doesn't mean just because you're a great batsman, it doesn't make you a great leader.
He managed in his own way to have the same to me he had the same no compromise standards that Stephen Waugh had, but Ricky had it in a bit of a different way. I don't think Ricky was. You put your arm around your player and cuddle them in the way that Stephen was. Ricky wasn't that type of leader, but boy, guys played for him and he took Australia, I guess Stephen took Australia to a certain level. Ricky then took it as well to a level beyond that in his own style. So I love the fact he didn't care about convention. He would back himself every time and he just always kept a cool head, no matter what was happening around him. Ricky seemed to be very cool and that's a talent to me to see that. And I've worked with leaders, especially in times in our own business of crisis communications, if you like, and you get to see leaders up close there. And to me, that's a massive insight into leadership. When you've really got your face to the fire, how do you respond? And I'm sorry, if you lose it, if you start lashing out at others in those moments of crisis, you're done from my viewpoint, because the best leaders are those who, as one of my old CEOs said, go and sit on the toilet seat of fire and see how long you can go for. And that, to me is. It's a great way to think about who can hold themselves together and be real leaders when things around them are falling apart. And to me, that's the thing I really seek out. Ricky was great. Stephen Wall was unbelievable in that way. Boy, he fired him up. But I've seen some leaders who just can't handle those situations and for me, that's the end of the road for them. If I've seen them in a situation where they.
They lose it, sorry, it's game over. So, yeah, being under pressure, Ricky was great at it. And he shone then, too.
[00:25:19] Speaker A: Did he ever, ever give you any. Any good tips on the pump?
[00:25:24] Speaker B: No, he.
[00:25:25] Speaker A: Did you give him some?
[00:25:27] Speaker B: No, we. I think because when we'd be away, strictly professional.
And when we'd be away, the races would always be run back in Australia at times when we were in bed or early morning. So it was always difficult. It was. It was like we had to follow remotely. So no. Or very professional, Brendan. Very above board. Always professional.
[00:25:46] Speaker A: You are the consummate professional. Absolutely, mate, absolutely.
So you've observed a lot. Again, you shared some fantastic insight there. And my chance to paraphrase your insight is at the end of the episode when I do some key takeaways and all that sort of stuff. So I'm going to put the hard word on you, mate. There's been a number of things that have popped out for me and what you've said. But if you had to pick, say, your top three attributes or qualities that have really resonated with you, out of all of that observation of the different styles of leads that you've observed and spent time with over the many years, what would you put down as your top three?
[00:26:21] Speaker B: Well, number one, people you've got to be able to connect to people to connect. If you're the CEO, you've got to connect with your COO as well as you connect with the janitor out back who might be walking through. I mean, the best leaders I've seen are those people who can connect with everyone, regardless of what stage they are in the business. That, to me is a massive priority. Number two is be inspiring.
Be inspiring. And sometimes to be inspiring, you do that because you collaborate. You know, the idea from the youngest person in the business might be just as good as from the most experienced. So you can inspire people by listening to them and making them feel a part of it. So never discount anyone. I've been fortunate. I've been surrounded by people way smarter than me all the time in leadership positions and accept that, you know, there's smarter brains around than you.
And three, be cool under pressure. Be cool because you're the leader. People look to you when things mightn't be going as well as they should.
So you need to be able to do that. Now, I've got a theory that, you know, that doesn't come easily.
It's like courage. Courage. When you play football, you either have it or you don't have it. To me, calmness under pressure, you have it, but you can develop it, I believe, and you can look around and get help from others and try and develop it. And if you want to scream and shout and stomp your feet, just bite your lip and take a step back. So they're probably the three things people.
It's about people. It's always people inspire. You do that through collaboration and making people feel part of it. And then be cool, always be cool, because that'll be so important when things don't go well.
[00:27:59] Speaker A: How good is it speaking to a journo? You've just written my three key takeaways.
[00:28:04] Speaker B: So I've got a problem. I've got lots of problems. That's one of them.
[00:28:07] Speaker A: That's a big one, mate. In my book, that is gold.
[00:28:13] Speaker B: I do think that people think, you can't underestimate it. And some of the, you know, some of the leaders that I've loved, they just know so much about different people's lives. And I've worked with editors before who will know what's happening in the cadet journalist's life and why they might be doing something in a particular way when maybe they shouldn't be, and what studying humanity and knowing how to do that. And we get back to our parents. But we were lucky because of that, because we were all raised in that way, that everyone was equal in a suburb that was new and the dignity of people was paramount. And I think that was really important in teaching us those types of things. And I've always been grateful for that and the fun conversations you can have with people of all different walks of life. My goodness, my life's been about telling people stories. It still is. You hear some cracking stories. It doesn't matter what lot in life you have. People have got good stories and I love to hear them.
[00:29:07] Speaker A: Absolutely, mate. Our parents are going to love us after this episode. They already love us. But we're going to get some brownie points, aren't we?
[00:29:13] Speaker B: I might need Mum to do some babysitting for me, so that might come. So you never know.
[00:29:17] Speaker A: Hey, good on you, buddy. Can I say that I don't want to get sort of political on you, but there was an ulterior motive to me asking that question. Because we're going to use those three pillars as a bit of a conversation when we talk about Norse devils, which you're the president of. And as you said earlier, they won the Entrust Grand Final on the weekend against Winter Manley 1610. I think the score was so fantastic result. But before we go into that, because you've been heading that journey as president, 55 comms. I know there's a story around the name and the number 55. Can you just tell us a bit about that before we go into the other stuff I mentioned?
[00:29:51] Speaker B: Yeah. So 55.
That was my wife, Ainsley, who's my business partner. That was her idea.
When I left journalism, I knew I wanted to try my own business because I always had such admiration for people who had their own businesses. I had no idea about it. And I must say, though, I was naive, because if I had any idea what starting a business was like, I wouldn't have done it. I went to it blindly, but I'm lucky that I did. But I was looking for a name for the business. Didn't really know much about What I was doing. My great grandfather was a guy called Jack Tracy.
He lived quite a remarkable life.
He was in the First World War for Australia. So he went from being a policeman at South Brisbane to enlisting as a volunteer and heading over to fight. He was part of the 9th Battalion in Queensland, a Queensland based battalion. The 9th Battalion was the battalion that landed very early at Gallipoli on the morning of the first Anzac Day in 1915. So he was wounded several times at Gallipoli and eventually discharged because of his wounds. But a guy who had as maybe a 13 year old rushed away to try and join the Boer War in South Africa, all the excitement of that, he stowed away, left his family and his parents and went across to the Boer War, but too young to fight, came back, was always seeking adventure. He found his adventure in Gallipoli and was wounded and discharged. But There were about 320,000 Australians in the First World War who received service numbers. So the number that was allocated to them as Australian servicemen, his number was 55, which shows you just how fast he was at the front of that queue to go and find adventure overseas. So, I mean, he did things with his adventure that I could never imagine. So my wife said, well, this is going to be a bit of an adventure, this business. Why don't you link it to a guy who, you know, just piled in and found his own way. So it's a tribute to my great grandfather, Jack tracy, the number 50.
[00:31:52] Speaker A: Yeah, mate, thank you for sharing that and such a great way to honor his memory and again, the leadership qualities he showed, no doubt in being so early in enlisting. Fantastic. Love the story. Thanks for sharing, buddy.
[00:32:03] Speaker B: Thanks, mate. It's an era that I'd love to know more about, but it's something I can only admire and pay tribute to.
[00:32:12] Speaker A: Mate, let's go on to North's Devils because as I mentioned at the start of the top of the show, you've got these jerseys behind you. We did mention them at the start.
You guys won the grand final on the weekend. You've been president of Norths since 2018?
[00:32:25] Speaker B: No, I've only been president this year, but on the board since then. So when we did a big apologies. Yeah, we did a rebuild in 2018. It's a club of my youth. My great grandfather, who I mentioned was a devil supporter when the club first formed in 1933. So I'm guess fourth generation north supporter. It's a club that's very dear to our family. So I first got involved on the board in 2018, late 2017, when we needed to rebuild the club, Brendan had been going through a bit of a tough time.
[00:32:56] Speaker A: Fantastic, mate. Thanks for clarifying that. And just so the listeners know, I'm an ex Brothers fan. Dad was a Brothers boy. So we really dislike Norths, but in my book, we dislike Winne Manley far more. So I was very glad to see Norths win on the weekend.
[00:33:11] Speaker B: Solidarity. Good to hear. Yes.
Weren't they great battles today?
[00:33:17] Speaker A: I'm batting for your team, mate.
[00:33:18] Speaker B: Well done. Well done. They're part of those great tribal things, Brothers, Valleys, all these things, whether they're sport or business or whatever, they're great tribal things and they do get people together. So that's a great part of it.
[00:33:30] Speaker A: Absolutely, mate. Look, it's exactly like the hiatus you had in our friendship when you dodged off to the dodgy school called St. Patrick's Shorncliffe and I went to Nudgee. But anyway, it's just. That's another story again, isn't it?
[00:33:43] Speaker B: That is. But we had a good nudgey boy in our squad this year, so great to see the Nudgey boys see the light and come across to the premiers. It was very much a good contribution.
[00:33:52] Speaker A: No doubt. He was the ultimate leader in the team too. So, anyway, we'll talk to him next episode.
Mate, let's dive in. So thanks for clarifying that. So you've been present the last 12 months. You've been part of the leadership, the senior executive team, let's say of north for some time. And you are that your blood bleeds blue as far as Norse colours go. So when you look at the three elements, the people be inspiring and cool under pressure. Let's start on the people, because it's very, very important, as you've said. What sort of stuff did you guys do?
What stood out around what we needed to do to rebuild Norse people both on and off the field.
[00:34:31] Speaker B: Okay, so let's set the context here. As I said, the club, 1933, it started.
And so our 89th season has just been finished, but a club of massive success through the 1960s, won six straight grand finals, which will never be, probably never matched again, but won eight premierships in 11 years. Won again in 1980 and 1998. Won again. And that was our last Premiership. That started an era that we had a relationship with, the Melbourne Storm. So we became the feeder club for the Melbourne Storm and a relationship in which we provided the Storm with some great players. And Billy Slater, for those who know rugby league, was a Norse Devils player Cooper Cronk played three seasons for us before he became a rugby league legend. Our youngest ever first grade captain in our club history is Cameron Smith, who I'm sure even people who don't follow league have heard of.
[00:35:21] Speaker A: So yeah, no, I don't. I don't know those names.
[00:35:23] Speaker B: That's right.
So our club had this period of having. Greg Inglis was one of our youngest players as well. So we had this period of having these fantastic guys who were Devils who came through our system. But what we didn't do was win a grand final. And then we had a period from 2012 to 2017 where we hadn't made the finals at all. So it was a time to rebuild the club. Now we're a feeder club to the Brisbane Broncos. So we have an affiliate arrangement with the Broncos. We're one of three clubs in Brisbane that do so the Broncos were quite hands on in saying, you know, we probably need to better resources club. It wasn't that the people there were doing a bad job, it was just trying to better resource it. So Bronco's were a client of mine and I worked closely with Paul White there, a very inspirational CEO who's still a friend of mine to this day. So sort of working with Whitey and then some great brains at the club. There are some great people there, people like Peter Fraser, Kevin Carmichael, four time player of the year NRL player. They were there and they had great insights.
So as a matter of just bolting on there, learning from those guys, but saying, well, what's the pathway here? This is a great club that hasn't won a premiership, the longest drought in the club history. How do we go about repairing that? So there were two key things that happened. There was the appointment of a CEO by the name of Terry Reeder. And if that name sounds familiar, Terry is the big chief of the Dolphins who've just made the NRL as a 17th team. And I expect Terry will be the CEO of the Dolphins. Terry was seconded from the Broncos to spend 16 months with us as CEO at Norse Devils. And then Rowan Smith, we signed as head coach. Now if you know rugby league, Rowan's father is Brian Smith, one of the greatest coaches in rugby league history in Australia. Rowan, in his mid-30s at the time, came in and we were blessed to have two guys like that. Rowan Smith remains our head coach and won that grand final last Sunday. So what they did was set about to build what are we going to do with this club? Our goals were very clear. We wanted to win the Premiership. We didn't shirk away from that. Again, I go back to the likes of Steve War and Ricky Ponting. We have clear goals. We want to win, okay, but we want to win in a way that is befitting of our club and that means that we want to win with a very team first approach.
Every ego is left at the door at our club and these are hallmarks of Rowan in particular.
So we have bypassed players who we thought would be very good players but would not fit that mindset of a very, very team oriented approach. And I can't emphasize that enough. You have to leave your ego at the door. You must play for each other and you win together, you lose together, but you're always together.
So I think those elements are really important. We wanted to win the Premiership. We're not going to shy away from that.
We knew it would take some time, but we were impatient. We still would have loved to have done it as soon as we could. We had the challenges of COVID last year where we had one game and we won that game and the season was cancelled. We thought we had a pretty good team last year, so we had to wait and be patient and come back again in 2021. So the patience was really important as well. And making the hard decisions along the way. So sometimes there are guys that just aren't going to be part of it. They're not going to make it. You've got to make the hardcore.
Rowan is unbelievable at doing that. That's a really important thing to me. If you compromise at any time to say, yeah, but he's a good guy and he may be, but in the end we need the great guys who are team players, but also the best that we can get in their position.
And those factors were never, ever breached. And so to me that was the key to it. And I should mention one other really important thing. And after Terry Reid left after 16 months, we got a CEO by the name of Troy Rovelli, a former football manager at the Sydney Roosters. Troy was a godsend to our club because they're your two most important leaders in a small club, your CEO and your coach. Troy Rovelli was a guy who had seen so much in the rugby league world. He was another guy who had, who still has great people skills. He remains our CEO.
And so those two worked together and got us to that position last week. So I'd say always surround yourself with really smart people. We're very lucky to have that. Don't compromise on those standards because you can't afford to and be bold about what your goals are. You know, to be honest, if we hadn't won the premiership last week, I would have been gutted. I would have been ultra proud of what our players had done because they had done so much. But in the end we knew what the goal was and to not get it would have left everyone disappointed, not just me. I mean, I didn't even play, for goodness sake. But I know how much it meant to those players. And in the end, the premiership was won. The grand final was one on five minutes of defence at the end and that five minutes of show and where that team first attitude came and everyone stuck together. So it was great to watch from, from the stands. It was, it was something that I'll. I'll.
I'll let sink in at some stage anyway. But my voice is holding together now for, for what it's worth, you're doing well, mate.
[00:40:30] Speaker A: And you've got both eyebrows today as well. So nobody, nobody got to you after the grand final by the looks.
[00:40:36] Speaker B: No, I'm too old these days, Brendan. You know, I've got too much responsibility hanging off my shoulders, which is boring. But I think that, that part of it, I, I'm still pinching myself in the sense of being happy for all of those players because let's face it, it's hard to win premierships like it is in business like it is to. To achieve goals and, and get contracts that might be goals that you have. To be honest, I didn't understand just how hard it would be.
And that's why I sort of admire so much what guys like Rowan Smith, Troy Rovelli, Terry Reeder and the players of course have done. Because a lot of it, all of our players work, they work full time in whole bunch of different jobs and then they come out on a Sunday and they put their body on the line in the competition, which is a tier below the nrl. And on any given Sunday, we're playing with, you know, three, four guys who are full time NRL players.
So that takes its own special ability from your coaching staff and your CEO to get these guys. One of our guys, you know, has been a roofer. He come off a roof at the end of a day in the Brisbane Heat and then go and train that night and on a Sunday go out there and put his body into ridiculous positions and then Monday morning be back on that roof in 30 degree temperatures. So, you know, it's trying to bring together all of these guys and all we do is, you know, look on and cheer from the stands. They're the guys that do the hard work. But for any of your employees, just trying to understand what's going on in their lives and you know, I'd always try and ask, you know, what does this player do for a living, what's their upbringing, what's that situation they were brought up in, etc. Because I find that stuff really interesting in knowing just what your people have come from and what they they're capable of and the best way to engage with them. Our interview will continue after this an expression of gratitude or reciprocity, no matter how large or small, is an important part of a healthy culture and relationships.
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[00:43:13] Speaker A: R.Com.Au I didn't know about the Broncos scenario, so that's really interesting. How important did you see that being on the ground that an organization like the Broncos provided that support and maybe some of the financial side of things, but they saw the importance of making sure the right people are on the ground and they could actually put a person who they considered to be a right person there to help guide that ship. But to sounds like set up some sort of succession planning which is well underway. How important was that process for the for the organization being Norths, the Broncos contribution was vital.
[00:43:49] Speaker B: It was vital. But like Paul White said to me at the time when he asked me to get involved there, he said a strong Norths is good for the Broncos. So he said if Norse are going well, that enables the Broncos to go well. So it was very good of the Broncos to provide that impetus and their contribution can't be underestimated. And then ironically we played last weekend in the Grand Final against Wynnum Manley, who another Broncos feeder team. Now Wynnum had five players on the field that day who were Broncos contracted players. So NRL players, we counted ourselves last week as having 17 devils.
So Danny Levi, who plays for us, is a Broncos contractor player, but only because he was a devil. First the Broncos took him from north, so ironically The Broncos provided such great impetus to get us rolling again at the end of 2017, but in the end we won that premiership without any of their, say, full time players, with the exception of Danny. But that was also something we learned. The Broncos are very important to us, but we knew that we had to take control of our team. So we didn't want to have to worry about which players came back to the Broncos from us to play on any Sunday. We wanted to look after business first and the Broncos players who came back were a bonus to us. That was the vision of Rowan, Terry, Reeder, Troy Rebelli to say let's look after our own business and let's use the other stuff as a bonus. And that was unbelievably vital for us because of COVID this year, a number of those players didn't qualify to play for us. So in the end we were left with 17 pure devils for the grand final. So I think it's a matter of a lesson to say there's always great help out there, but if you can always look after business yourself, you can do the best to. Let's face it, there's no greater interest than self interest. We spoke about politics before, but to look after our own thing first and then use the rest as a bonus. We learned that from the Melbourne experience when we had the Cameron Smiths, Cooper Cronks, Billy Slaters, Greg Inglis and the rest. In the end though, the strong core was what gets you over the line with the people in your own business.
[00:45:53] Speaker A: Yeah, mate, you mentioned earlier too, and I think because of the level of humility you have and team first, you know you're president of north, so they play a role, your role as president, you referred more to the link between the CEO and the coach being Troy Rovelli currently and Rowan Smith as coach. But how did those three pillars, that's what I would call them, President, CEO, coach. What was that interaction like in order to make decisions on people, understand who are the right people versus who are those people that have ego and aren't team first.
Tell us a bit about that experience.
[00:46:29] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think for me in the role of not for profit boards. So our positions at Norse are voluntary as directors. We don't get paid for that. I spent eight years up until the end of last year as president of Q Music. So Q Music is a not for profit. It's the peak industry body, if you like, for contemporary music in Queensland. We call ourselves an industry development association, basically to help people who may be interested in music go From a hobbyist into someone who can make a living out of it. The greatest example is one of your old nudgey college mates in Pete Murray, who on the release of his first album said, if it wasn't for Q Music teaching me the ropes, I wouldn't have got there now. So my view, as someone who I guess I spent a decade now on not for profit boards, my view is, from that role, you have to have confidence in your people. There is no point you being a president who's operational, if you don't have the people there to be operational in your trust. Your CEO, you coach as well, obviously, at Norse Devils, then you do from the start. Now, I've never got involved at all in which players are we going to sign? Which players will we let go? That's not me, that's for Rowan and that's for Troy, because to me, if I'm needed to get hands on there or we haven't got the right people in place.
So I have full confidence in Rowan and Troy and I learn a lot from them. Even though, you know, I'm in that role on the board, I learned lots from those guys about that. So to me, it's any part of business if you don't trust the people in your business and you've got to be too hands on, well, you've probably got yourself, one, too much work or extra, and two, not the right people.
So for me, my role as a president is to help where I can.
So what can I do to help our executive? So that's always the way I viewed those roles. On those not for profit boards, I.
I'm there to help in any way I possibly can. Yes, I'm there to be part of that leadership team and I'll always provide that. But also let me know how I can help you. And so I can't emphasise enough the importance of getting good people into those roles, because if you don't, you've just got nothing but trouble and you're going to have to work a way around that. So I'm never hands on in the sense of being operational on those things, Brendan, because I don't think that's a great way to go. But I'm very across what we're doing. I'm very across, say, at Norse, who we're signing and why we're signing, but I will never, ever interfere in that, because people who know a hell of a lot more than me are in our employ and are far better to make those decisions than I can. But I must Also say one thing. I mean, you've also got to be rational. And I mean, like you said before, we bleed blue and gold in our family, but you've got to separate that. You cannot possibly let that emotion cloud your decisions because that's just a terrible recipe for trying to run anything. So I'm always very mindful of trying to just, you know, disassociate myself from that. You know, the emotion, the excitement to get at winning with the need to make decisions based on rationality. And one of those really important ones, as we said before, is to be a club or a business, whatever you are, that puts ego out the back and puts team first.
And you might have a player who's got, you know, or a potential employee who's got. Who can be brilliant, they can be brilliant. If they're not going to fit in with your culture, sorry, they can't come because they'll do more damage than they'll do good. And you just gotta take emotion out and make decisions based on rationality and what's best for that whole overall culture.
[00:50:06] Speaker A: Mate, how important is it that people knowing their role, which is something you alluded to, so them knowing their role and in order to achieve performance, like, how important is that link?
[00:50:18] Speaker B: It's huge for mine. I mean, great teams work together because everyone knows their role. And it's no different whether you're on a football field or in a corporate boardroom or wherever you may be, you've got to know your role. Darius Boyd is a friend of mine and a client of ours. Darius Boyd being former Brisbane Broncos captain, you know, Queensland player, Australian player. Darius once said to me that the easiest football he played was when he played for Australia. Now he played 23 Tests for Australia and they won it all. 23. And Darius would say, I don't want to sound arrogant, which he is the last person to be arrogant, but he said when I played for Australia, he said I was playing with the best of the best and everyone knew their role. He said all I had to do was concentrate on my job. Because he said the bloke next to me and the one next to him, they all did their job so well I could focus on my role. And he said that made it to me the easiest football I played. Now, the further down you went to a club level, he said, I knew maybe the guy next to me, he was young and he hadn't been there. I had to worry about him. And there was a guy over there I had to worry about as well.
So, yes, they were doing their jobs, but it was a confidence in making sure they could do their jobs to the best level possible.
And that's a story that it's always stuck with me because when you think about it, that's a great point. When you work and look, I was part of two teams that covered Olympic Games. I covered Olympic games in Beijing as part of a News Corp team and we had I think maybe 20 journals there. I found that outstanding because I was over there with 20 of the best journalists in Australia from my viewpoint. So I found my job really comfortable. I learned heaps of those journalists learn heaps. But I also felt quite relaxed because I knew the strength around me and to be honest, I wanted to actually make sure that I didn't let the team down. So I tried extra hard to frenetic. When you cover Olympic games, pretty much four weeks of no days off and up to 16 hour days. So, you know, I didn't want to let anyone down around me. So I sort of get that point of Darius, know your role, do your role, do it to the best of your ability. And that makes things work as you know as well as they can.
[00:52:25] Speaker A: Yeah, mate, we will go on to the next pillar.
So many great points you've shared around people, but that be inspiring. But what I've got to share with you first is that it's almost like I feel like you've had one of the best jobs going around at times because you've covered all these sporting events, you follow Australian cricket teams around, you've been able to sort of be in the trenches but you haven't had to worry. You could probably have a drink any time of the night you want, you could eat whatever you wanted. You haven't had to perform on the pitch.
Yeah, it's like living this sporting life but not having to do the performance there.
[00:52:57] Speaker B: Yeah, but you know, that is so true and that's brilliant. I admire these players who do because they're under a searing spotlight. But I'll tell you one thing, Stephen Waugh in his memoirs, which he hand wrote by the way, or 700 pages or whatever, Stephen in his memoirs wrote about journalists. And as I said before, Stephen could be a bit fractious. You know, he liked to put his point across. He could also be fantastic to deal with. But you know, he liked to test journeys out. But he wrote in his memoirs that he underestimated for journalists some of the similarities in what they did with players in the sense that. So I was over there, I was reporting for say the Courier Mail The Daily Telegraph in Sydney, the Herald sun in Melbourne, the AD8 advertiser and sometimes the Australian. Now, if I got beaten on a story by my competitors at the Sydney Morning Herald, the Age or ABC Radio, I knew about it really fast.
So there was, as Stephen wrote in his memoirs, there was a competitive element and if we missed a story, if we got a team wrong, because you'd always have to actually predict what the final team would be, who would play and who wouldn't play, they were high stakes because let me tell you, you didn't want to get woken up at three in the morning with someone on the other end of the phone being less than complimentary about the fact your story wasn't as good as your competitor's story. So yes, we could have a beer and it was fantastic. But and I guess I don't sort of miss it because they were hard yards. I mean, I think the most I worked in one Stint was about 84 straight days with no days off and often long days on those ones. And that's where you've got to keep your wits about you because it's always competitive and you just got to have the stamina and you've got to stay across things and you've also got to learn to deal with the fact that you've got to get beaten on stories. You will get beaten. How do you handle that and how do you atone for it? Because that's what your editor wants to know. How do you make up for it? So yeah, it's that challenge of stamina. But yeah, I loved the beer when I was on a long day. It was helped to get you through, I must say.
[00:55:00] Speaker A: Yeah, mate, it's look a bit tongue in cheek. You know, you've been at the top of your game for a long time. That requires a certain element of discipline. But at least you probably don't have a the outside thousands of punters thinking they know best about your performance. You're sort of a little bit behind their backgrounds, aren't you? Like you said, there's a lot of pressure on these high level sports and politicians or these public facing people, especially.
[00:55:21] Speaker B: With social media, Brendan, and it's changed it drastically. And I don't know how these young athletes fix it because social media is such a part of their lives.
Now Darius Boyd, he has a luxury of not having social media because he doesn't think he could handle it. Darius knows his strengths and weaknesses. He has LinkedIn, but he won't do Instagram or the others. But Darius came from an era where he was sort of the last of the pre social media. These guys today, they can come off the field, they can pick up their phones and they can have abuse levelled at them from the moment they sit down and have a look at it. It's easy for us older guys to say, put your phone away. I think it's less easy for younger people, especially your employees, who might be that generation as part of their lives. So I was trying to work out a way to make that work and even for CEOs who get active on social media as well. Hey, I used to put the front page of the Kurumail up on my personal Twitter page every night when I was editor and I could guarantee I'd have 10 abusive tweets within about half an hour. But that was low key compared to what these athletes go through today. So it's one that I always try and look at and I must say, I don't always feel I'm the best placed person to do it because I don't understand that world as well as those younger guys and girls living in it today. They understand it far better than me.
[00:56:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I think you and me both, mate, but certainly tough to handle. Again, social media, another topic, and that's a massive one in itself, mate. Let's move on to be inspiring. So another pillar you've chosen in your top three, what does that be inspiring look like? What have you had to do and people within the North Devils organization around being inspiring?
[00:57:02] Speaker B: Yeah. I think in the end, in any organization, a leader has to create an environment of innovation, of excitement, and they have to inspire. Now, whether they inspire from the front in their own way, or whether they create the environment in which people feel they've got a voice, feel their ideas will be listened to, and feel that they can learn from others, to me, that's so important, what you have to do. So create the environment of respect. It comes down to respect so people know that they will be listened to. But respect with boundaries, so that we know what the boundaries are, but we want your ideas. And so in a team environment, everyone takes credit when the team does well. To me, if you've got people in there who get jealous because someone else had the idea that was successful, they're probably not the people that I'd want around me. So in the end, the team benefits from everyone coming forward and being able to feel as though they're in an environment of collaboration. So that's. How do you as a leader, create that environment, put your ego a bit to the side, you know, as I said, I had no problem as an editor. I hired a deputy editor who remains a good mate of mine who was far better than I was. Gee, he was a gun. But I just knew he'd make us better. I had no problems knowing that. To me, he was better than I was at my job. I needed him there. He was outstanding. And he continues to be good in his work now. So you've got to have that environment, put your ego aside, create an environment that's inspiring. That can't all come from you. You can set the framework for it, but you need to know that there's people there who will contribute. And you need the views of so many. And at the Norse Devils, I mean, I credit Rowan Smith with what he's done there for players buying in and players being able to feel as though that they're all in something together. And one of the easy ways that Rowan does that is he plays a style of football in which he lets the players back themselves when he thinks that, you know, they see something on the field that they want to do and they do it so often, you know, if they make a mistake, they make a mistake. But he has trust in his players, he lets them take risks on the field in sense of trying things that other coaches just do not. They just don't. And for that reason, Rowan's attracted a whole bunch of players who think, I like this style of footy because I get to, you know, chance my arm on the field, within reason. And Rowan has attracted great qualities of players who want to be part of that. And that's that inspiring culture, being able to set that up and get good people in there. Because the sum of the parts is what's better than just the leader themselves.
[00:59:31] Speaker A: Was there a particular moment in the season where you felt really inspired something you saw, something you witnessed through this journey in the last 12 months.
[00:59:40] Speaker B: Particularly because I'm a, you know, as I said, fourth generation supporter. We haven't had much success in the recent years. You tend to get that sort of thing where you're always bracing yourself thinking, oh goodness, what's going to. What's going to go wrong? What could go wrong? So I'm always a bit nervous like that when there's a game on. We went up to Townsville to play in July, so we went to Townsville and Townsville had won five games straight. Townsville's got a bunch of North Queensland Cowboys players. They were playing at home and we'd never won before in Townsville. The club had never won there before. So I went up there thinking, this is going to be a really challenging game, but we won that game pretty easily. And after that I sort of relaxed and took a deep breath because I could just see what was happening on the field. Those guys were locked in. Those guys are playing for each other. That was a big challenge. They embraced the challenge. They loved the challenge. And that's when I sort of stopped worrying. It reminded me of a time when I covered cricket. I mentioned Matthew Hayden earlier. Matthew, such a wonderful batsman, but Matthew had been on the fringe of the Australian team for some years and a lot of Queenslands will remember that. There was people holding up signs, give Matt about, you know, get Matt back in. It was like a whole state was pushing for Matt Hayden to play cricket again. And he got his recall to test cricket and the last test of the summer in Hamilton, New Zealand. So we're over there playing against New Zealand and Matt's recall was so deserved. New Zealand batted first on the first day and were all out with two overs to go on the first day. So guess what? Matthew Hayden comes out to bat with two overs left until the end of the first day. Now, what can happen in those two overs? Anything positive? Nothing. What's the downside? You could get out. So what happens to Matt? After all those years of waiting, he gets a fantastic delivery from the New Zealand bowler, he nicks it behind and he's out within two hours. Now, I personally felt crushed and I don't really ride the emotions of players as a journalist because it's all about the story and being professional for Matt, I was gutted for all this time when that's happened. Now, later that night I went back to the team hotel, I punched the lift doors to go up in the lift. The lift door was open. Who's in the lift? It's just Matthew Hayden. And I said to Matt, mate, I am so sorry for what happened this afternoon. I feel devastated for you. To which Matt, in the most relaxed way, went, mate, seriously, don't worry. They're not going to give me one chance and that's it. I'll get a chance and if I'm good enough, I'll take it. But it's not going to end, you know, on this week alone. And then we went and had a long chat about other things and when I saw how relaxed he was, I stopped worrying for him because that was someone who was very much at peace, who was very skilled and he went on to have one of the fantastic careers in Australian Test cricket history after that moment. So I guess that just seeing people who, you know, are in charge of what they're doing, who are confident without being arrogant, who understand the challenge and embrace it, and then I could stop worrying for them. So that was like us this year at the Devils. And in any part of your work, when you see that type of thing and I see it in our workplace and with clients, it's something to be in awe of and it's a great thing. And I love when I see that. Those moments don't happen often, but when they do, they're worth savoring.
[01:02:51] Speaker A: I love that. I actually found that story very inspiring. When you talk about Hatos, I mean, it just says a lot. I've read his autobiography, like a lot of cricketers, and you know, what a champion.
[01:03:01] Speaker B: Yeah. And the pressure that he had on his shoulders, Brendan, because it was like the whole state was with him. And if Matt failed, we felt we all failed. He took the pressure on those massively broad shoulders and away he went. And one thing I loved about Matt was he wasn't afraid to, you know, get motivated by getting in scraps on the field with others. You know, Matt was one of the few guys who wouldn't mind being chirpy when he batted. Now you think about it, there's two batsmen out there and 11 fielders. It's not the place to be chirpy, really, because you're outnumbered horribly. Didn't worry Matt at all. He used that to get himself going and he also inspired his teammates who might have been not as. Not as forthright as Matt. But I always love the story about Matty Hayden when he faced Shah Bhaktar, the fastest bowler in the world, Pakistan. Shah Bhaktar, lethally fast and very dangerous. So he would bolt a Matthew with the new ball. Matt reckoned that he had three overs in him of pure pace and then he fell away. So Matt used to openly count down from 18 to 1 the number of balls that he thought Shahab could bowl before his pace fell off.
So Shah would steam in off a very, very long run and bowl this ball at 160km an hour. It would whistle past Matt's nose and he'd go, 17, mate, 17 to go. That's all you got. Which would just send Showab spare and really fire Showab up. But he'd also lose a bit of his way. Now that's guts to me. That's guts. But that's a way that he worked. And I know his teammates would say he'd be at the non strikers End. And he said we'd be facing and sharp would almost knock our block off. And at the end, you'd hear this stupid Queenslander go, 11, 11 to go, mate. That's all you got. And I say all these different approaches that people have to what they do in their jobs, what works for Matt didn't work for other people. But I love the confidence. I've attracted that confidence and that sort of, I'm going to back myself and I'll get it done. I love that. And, you know, I loved it about Matty Hayden.
[01:04:57] Speaker A: Another brilliant story.
Not one I remember hearing, actually. But that's cool, Queensland confidence, isn't it?
[01:05:05] Speaker B: I love that sort of confidence. I love it. And if you fail, you fail. But for whatever reason, I've always been attracted to that. Now, not everyone can do it. You have to be that type of person. You've got to be comfortable in your own skin. Know what works for you. Know what doesn't work for you. That worked for Matt. That worked for Stephen Moore as well. Stephen was, you know, someone who also spoke to the opposition when he was batting. Now, other batsmen could never do that. And it's the same in business. You know what works for you, you know what doesn't.
[01:05:31] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely, mate. Let's go on to the. You sort of led into a little bit with hate our story, but cool under pressure again. Have you got a moment or a story, something you recall, where an instance where you've been with a leader, sporting, political, whatever, and you just think, holy hell, like this is a crazy moment and you've just been really astounded by that calmness, by that coolness under pressure. Tell us a bit about that, buddy.
[01:05:57] Speaker B: Yeah, it's another quality that I'm really attracted to a number of school principals. We work with a lot of school principals in greater southeast. Number of those principals where they've got serious, serious issues at their schools. And I can't name them, but talking issues that are front page of newspapers, in media, and the way that some of those school principals we work with have handled that, I find inspiring. They are. They are good people. And Brisbane's blessed to have a number of very good school principals who, you know, keep things very tight when things around them are challenging. I would also single at Darren Lockyer, who is a client of ours at 55 comms and someone I've worked with a bit over time.
Darren Lockyer to me is sort of probably the ultimate cool head under pressure. And you go back to Queensland, won eight state of origin Series in a row.
Now we were going to lose series number one. That started that dynasty, if you like. Except that Locky pounced on a wayward pass in the final minutes of the game in Melbourne and Queensland won a game. Now that, from Locky, was unbelievably cool. Never once flinched. He was a man who just found ice in his veins. I don't know how, when pressure was on. He's a guy now who, working with him away from the playing arena, ask great questions, thinks about things and always lets rationality overcome emotion. And that's a bit of a talent. I mean, I would love to have had any amount of football ability to play a game alongside someone like Darren Lockheed 7. I was hopeless, so I couldn't do that. But just the way those guys do that. But Lockie's someone in particular and one skill there. I'd say this about Darius Boyd as well. Great question askers. They don't pretend to know everything. In fact, they will ask you what they think are the most basic questions so they understand the situation. But those two guys in common have got great cool level heads. And that's one thing that I just find it really quite uplifting when things are tough.
[01:07:59] Speaker A: Yeah. When you refer to Locky and then Queensland, state of origin, that dynasty, it was really many, many moments through that period of, I think 10 or 11 series that we got over a period of time where it was just continual cool under pressure moments, wasn't it? Compared to New south Wales, that is 100.
[01:08:16] Speaker B: Right. And even though we won eight straight, a lot of people forget that a lot of those games are really close. Like in those eight years, there was only one clean sweep. That was it. So I sort of feel for the blues in a way. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I feel.
[01:08:31] Speaker A: I can't believe you do. We'll edit that bit out.
[01:08:33] Speaker B: It's terrible. I'm losing the plot, but I feel from the way that they were sort of ridiculed for losing eight in a row, but the fact was they just weren't as good in the pressure moments as Queensland were. As simple as that. And Queensland had Cameron Smith, Darren Lockyer, Jonathan Thurston, Cooper Cronk, Billy Slater, Darius Boyd, ultra cool under pressure. They just had this, not even once in a generation to me, once in 50 years, group of players who could execute under pressure. In fact, they loved it. The tighter it was, the more they loved it. And that's a real unique skill that to want it when it's tough to Rather have a game when you lead by two points in a game when you lead by 20. That's a real skill set. So I sort of. That series was a close series. And even in business, we tend to look back on things sometimes in business and we probably underestimate the battle on things. You get a victory in business, but you think that's great. But I think sometimes you can underestimate the battle and what you learn from the battle because you learn so much that you can take into other situations, mate.
[01:09:35] Speaker A: This inspiring journey that North's Devils are on and been on and culminating the journey in the Grand Final win, you're president, as we've said multiple times. When have you had to be cool under pressure?
[01:09:46] Speaker B: In this journey, in this journey, I guess trying to weigh up the expectations of people who are desperate for us to win again. Trying to say, you know, it'll come when the right things are in place and you can't wave a magic wand to get that done. So there's always pressure to win, especially when you haven't won for 20 plus years. But then also we lost a knockout semifinal two years ago when we were fifth versus eighth and we lost that game and knocked out of the season. We'd won 15 games and lost eight and then we lost that home semifinal and we'd sort of been promising for some time that we were on, on the path. The path. We were confident with the path. And when we lost that game, there was a lot of, you know, especially supporters who understandably when here we go again. We've made the finals for the first time in seven years, as we did, and we got knocked out straight away. So here we go. It's, it's, it's just a normal journey. So probably that having to hold the line there and go, no, no, that was, that was a setback. But we've got to learn from that probably in my journalism. Korea, no doubt, during the floods of 2011. So when we had to send reporters out to tell stories of devastation, heartbreak across Southeast Queensland, you know, to be able to have all those things around you to ensure that your journalists were okay. And funnily enough, three weeks after that, we had the floods of January 2011. And three weeks later we had Cyclone Yasi, which, which came through North Queensland and was a genuine category five, you know, to be feared. And we had reporters all through North Queensland. And I still recall being very concerned for one of our photographers and one of our journalists, both great operators who were in the eye of the cyclone at Tully. So we had them staying at Tully, and the eye of the cyclone was approaching Tully, and so it was pretty hectic and we lost contact with them and thinking, my goodness, I hope they're okay. And then most of our journalists we'd had on the phone and you could barely hear them because of the. The noise in the background. And then all of a sudden, it might have been about a quarter past 12 in the morning, phone rings, it's our man and Tully who said, hey, guys, just want to ring you. I'm okay, I'm going good. It was deathly silenced behind him. The reason it was deathly silenced is because he was in the eye of that cyclone. So he was in the midst of all of the calm that all around him were the winds of up to 300ks an hour. So just reporting in, guys, it's all good. I'll tell you what, I've never been in the eye of a cyclone. It's freaky. This is fantastic. It's great.
To which I almost had heart palpitations. But, you know, when you've got people out there that work for you and they're out there in danger and, you know, whether it be whatever their business might be, I think they're moments that sort of test you because it's out of your control. You can't control any of that.
And for someone like me, you just got to know when you can't control things and accept that. And especially at the Devils, I mean, we can't control what happens on the field, except you can't control it. Know the people out there are doing their very best and they're there because they're trusted and they can do it and have comfort in that. There's no point getting worked up about things that you have no direct control over. So, yeah, I'll remember that phone call forever when out of the deathly silence of Tully became our reporter in the middle of the cyclone.
[01:13:04] Speaker A: But have you ever considered writing your own memoirs?
[01:13:07] Speaker B: No, definitely not. I've forgotten most of it. Just a couple of stories, Brendan. We keep them. Just a couple of them. But look, I've been fortunate that you've.
[01:13:15] Speaker A: Had some fantastic experiences, mate. And just the insight.
[01:13:19] Speaker B: Yeah, And I think that's the life that journalists are lucky to get. They see things up close and they get to.
But you're never part of that world.
And you know, I would never say that I was mates with Australian cricket players, that I was a journalist. I was not their mate. After my journalism career finished, I would still count Matty Hayden, as someone I admire and speak to every now and again to catch up and see how he's going and how his family's going. But you've got to live in your own world. You're there to represent readers, you're not there to be mates of people. So as long as you know where your world is, to me, that's really important. The moment you start to mix and hang out with that person and that person because they're famous or whatever, to me, you start to really cloud things. You've got to stay in your lane.
[01:14:07] Speaker A: Before we go into sort of one of the penultimate questions, I suppose, I don't know if you've done this deliberately, but the three pillars you've chosen to me is absolutely unbelievable because they're all so interlinked. It's almost like the project management triangle, right? You sort of muck around with the people that's going to impact on inspection. Inspiring and cool under pressure. And, you know, the people underpin everything. And, you know, those cool under pressure moments are actually those inspiring moments. And to be inspiring, you need to be cool under pressure. It's mate, it's beautiful synergy. Well done.
[01:14:37] Speaker B: Thanks. That was not by design, that, but I, you know, it comes back to people, you know, and just enjoying people. That's life. Enjoy people. And it's all about, you know, getting that. I don't care what line of work you're in, whether it be business, sport, charity, whatever. To me, it's about people. And the best leaders I've seen are the people who get on best with others around the place and people you want to sort of hang out with and listen to. So, yeah, to me, it's always been very heavily people based.
[01:15:08] Speaker A: This is a question I ask all my guests and I need to ask you because a lot of the stuff you've already said has next to no value. What is the one thing I say that, tongue in cheek?
It has enormous value. But what is if I can push you, what is that one thing when reflecting on all of this experience that has had the greatest impact on your own leadership journey?
[01:15:31] Speaker B: The generosity of others and mentors. I must say, to me, I have been so blessed with people who have helped me out and I'll always be grateful for that. And what those mentors have taught me is you've always got more to learn. You've always got more to learn. You've never learned everything.
So I guess from that viewpoint, never think you know everything. There's always things to learn. And my mentors taught me that. Not directly, but I always learned something from them. I thought I'd never thought about that before or thought about, you know, something in that particular way. And that happens all the time to me. So I guess it's always seeking something else. It's always seeking something.
When you're a young journalist, one of the first things you're taught is to check everything. Check. You know, there's an old saying, if your mother tells you she loves you, go and check. So not meaning you, mum, it's all good.
But you can also become too cynical in that stage to me. But just always, you're always learning. And that is, for me, always learn. Always know there's more to learn. Find good people who can help you learn those things.
[01:16:37] Speaker A: Well said, mate. Remiss of me. Not to mention your podcast linked to 55 comms called Sourced Mate. Tell us a bit about the podcast. I've listened to a few episodes again in preparation for today. I love it.
[01:16:49] Speaker B: Thanks, Brendan. Yeah, well, the podcast is really just to shine a bit of a light on the world of communications, but particularly media. And this comes from questions that we often get asked about. And I get asked all the time as a former newspaper editor, well, why is that a story? Why is that that not a story? Into other things. So it's a chance for us to talk to communication professionals about how you engage with audiences. Like, how do you get the attention of audiences? Because in the end, that's what our business is, is to try and engage audiences and get them to maybe behave in a certain way. And there's a whole bunch of different ways that people have insights into that. So it's sort of our podcast is, you know, it's very deep. We mentioned Deb Riley, the Game of Thrones production designer. So Deb was a great guest because she spoke about engaging audiences through working on Moulin Rouge with Baz Luhrmann. So the cinema, working in the Olympic Games ceremonies in Sydney. So live action. And then working with the small screen or the big screen with Game of Thrones. So how does Deb best get the attention of audiences and engage them? So that's what we try to do. How do you get people to take notice and maybe act in a way that you'd like them to act? So that's what it's about.
[01:18:01] Speaker A: And a fantastic story, which, again, a bit of a plug for that episode with Deb Riley that she shared a story about her Baz Luhrmann being a mentor and how he helped her learn sculpting. To help on one of the sets, which was, again, I found absolutely fascinating. The other thing I found fascinating in that conversation with Deb Riley was just, I'm looking through my lens of leadership and teamwork, particularly in culture, and the amount of teamwork that's required in a role like hers, because there's so many different parts of all moving at different speeds and stuff. But bringing all that together is just fascinating.
[01:18:36] Speaker B: It is. It's a great point you made that Baz Luhrmann won about what he and Deb did together when Deb was young, working on Moulin Rouge. But, you know, Baz created that environment where everything was possible.
So, you know, Deb was sort of wondering about whether she had the skill to sculpt, and Baz gave her the confidence to think, let's give it a go. We can do something like that. So he's a great example of creating an environment in which people feel confident enough to try things and to learn. And look what Deb's gone on to do. But she tells a lovely story in that podcast as well, of when she got the job as a Game of Thrones production designer. Massive, massive role, which she nailed. But she was little known at the time. She was little known, but Baz knew her. And when Baz saw that she got that role, he sent her a message. And that message was a lovely message to Deb, which, again, filled her full of confidence, but was a great sign of the leader that Baz Luhrmann must be. Now, I don't know him from Bar of Soap, but they've painted a great picture of what he must be.
[01:19:34] Speaker A: Yeah, look, as you said, around your own impact and what's impacted you. Mentors, they make a hell of a difference.
[01:19:39] Speaker B: They do. And, yeah, they do. And Baz, I mean, to hear those stories just inspires you a bit more. So that was a great part of that.
[01:19:46] Speaker A: Michael, this has been an absolutely fascinating conversation. I love being reconnected. Now, again, I don't want to break that connection, but just your insight today, what you've been able to share. I think my biggest challenge after this episode and listening back is I always keep and identify three takeaways from the episode. I don't know how I'm going to nail it down to three, mate. It's going to be pretty tough.
You've had wonderful experience, wonderful observations, and like a true leader, you've turned those observations, you've utilized the ones that have most resonated with you, and you've taken action. And that's obviously been seen through the creation of your business, what you did as the editor of the Courier Mail, how that's linked into your role at St Patrick Shorncliffe as the president of one of the organizations there and obviously also president now, but being a part of the senior leadership team at Norse Devils, mate. So congratulations on all you're doing. You're obviously a great person. I know that you are inspiring people and you must also be pretty cool under pressure. So I want to say thank you very much for being a guest on the Cultural Things podcast and you were certainly cool under pressure today, buddy.
[01:20:57] Speaker B: Hey, thanks Brendan, I've really enjoyed it. I've gibbet away. But look, thanks so much for having me on and just to be able to reconnect with you and to talk about some of those things from the past, it was great fun. So thank you. Really enjoyable. I've really enjoyed your podcast in recent times, so it's been a pleasure to be part of it. So thank you and I look forward to to the episodes to come. So thanks Brendan.
[01:21:23] Speaker A: I appreciate you and my pleasure. Thanks buddy.
It's always great to reconnect with an old mate from your childhood. Michael's a fellow Queenslander, a fellow St. Joseph's Primary School student and a Brackenridge lad. He might have gone to a dodgy high school, but he still turned out alright.
Throughout Michael's journalism career and his current media business, 55 Comms, he's had fantastic opportunities to be up close and personal with a wide range of leaders across sport, industry and politics. As Michael shared, he observed many leadership attributes and has acted on the ones that most resonated with him to form his own leadership style. Underpinning this are the three key leadership attributes he shared during the conversation.
Connect with people, be inspiring and be cool under pressure. Michael shared his three key leadership takeaways. Now I'll share my three key takeaways from my conversation with Michael. My first key takeaway Leaders never compromise on people. They ensure people already on the team and people who join are aligned with the core behaviors of the team. They never focus on choosing the most technically talented person.
They focus on choosing the behaviourally aligned person. They know if they're not behaviourally aligned, they'll do more damage than good. So don't bring them in. Be ruthless and never, ever compromise on people. My second key takeaway Leaders trust people to do their job. This isn't about leaving people to do whatever they want because you fear being called a micromanager. It's about ensuring your team has absolute clarity of their role and responsibilities, and every individual in the team has absolute clarity on their specific role and responsibilities.
When that's in place, it's important to remind people what their role and responsibilities are, but you should leave them to decide how they get on and do it. This demonstrates trust in the people to do their job My third key takeaway Great leaders have great mentors.
A great mentor will nurture the mentee, AKA leader and encourage them to learn, develop and upskill. A great leader will seek out mentors who give them the confidence to learn, develop and upskill. Leaders know there's always more to learn, more to develop, and more ways to upskill. That's why great leaders will always seek out and find great mentors.
So, in summary, my three key takeaways were Leaders never compromise on people, leaders trust people to do their job, and great leaders have great mentors. If you want to talk culture, leadership or teamwork, or have any questions or feedback about the episode, you can leave me a comment on the socials or you can leave me a voice
[email protected] thanks for joining me. And remember, the best outcome is on the other side of a genuine conversation.
Sam.
