From Camps to a Movement: The Boys to the Bush Story with Adam DeMamiel

[00:00:00] Speaker A: In this episode we dive into his journey, the lessons learned and how those same principles can transform your business. Adam, welcome to Cultural Leadership. How are you buddy? [00:00:13] Speaker B: I'm well Brandon, thanks for having me on. [00:00:15] Speaker A: What I'd love for you to share is what's that moment when you knew boys to the bush had to exist? [00:00:21] Speaker B: For me personally there is a clear standout moment. And it was early days. We started by running camps for kids, for any kids and getting them out on farms and back to basics is what we used to do, it's what we still do but for me it's a story I've told I don't know how many times now, but we had a young fellow come along on our second ever camp and he was a real handful young fellow from out near Bathurst and he's actually up on the wall behind me and he came on a second ever camp kid from out of home care, no male role models and a bit of a troublemaker. And he caused us no end of grief on that second camp and we got through the camp just and didn't kick him off but we should have probably at least a thousand times for you know, starting fights and if he wasn't meant to be up a tree, be up a tree or just doing silly things. But we got through it and thought, you know, that might be the end of him, hope he doesn't come back kind of thing. And then close to the next holidays I get a call from the caseworker and she said, oh, can I book this young fella in again? And I sort of thought, well I know what the other guys would say but you know, everyone deserves a second chance. So we got him back and I thought, you know, this is his chance. And anyway, same sort of deal. He was a nightmare. Well, he was a little bit better. We probably should have only kicked him off about 900 times this camp but again got to the end of it and thought, you know, he stamped his papers, he can't be coming back sort of thing. And it was just not enjoyable really. Like we just roused on him the whole time for the two camps and got close to the next holidays, same deal. Caseworker called, can I book him in? And I was just about to kind of like that's what I was thinking, that she was trying to book him in and I took the call thinking I'm going to have to break the news to her that he's not coming back. And she said look, the reason I'm calling is he's, he's got A really aggressive form of cancer. He's been airlifted to Sydney. It doesn't look good for him. And I was just, you know, a bit like, you know, as big a pain in the backside as he is, you know, you don't wish that on anyone. And she said, you know, it's really, really serious. The doctors told him to get in touch with the most important people in his life. And he's asked us to get in touch with his caseworker, sorry, his auntie that raised him. And he's asked us to get in touch with you. And for me at the time, I was like, this kid should hate me. I don't particularly like him. We've spent about eight or 10 days together in our whole lives. And of that time, I've yelled at him the whole time for playing up. And I think that for me was that kind of moment where I was like, hang on, we've got something a little bit more here. Like, I don't know why, but this kid really likes me. He likes us. And I think it was. Cause whilst we were rousted on him, we showed him we genuinely cared and we wanted him to be safe and we were consistent and all that sort of stuff with him. And yeah, so he just sat. Simple moment. I was dumbfounded as to why he would list us. And then you think about it, it's like, well, if he's listing us, the poor kid, what has he got? And we to be doing more for kids like this, because he wasn't. He wasn't just, you know, he wasn't one of a few. He was one of most kids that's coming from those same sort of situations. So that was kind of a moment where I was like, right, we've got to do more for these kids and start thinking a bit more than just giving them a nice experience. What can we do to actually impact their lives longer term? And, you know, that. That sort of, for me, sort of kick things off. [00:04:06] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a great spark, mate. So from that spark, what does Boys to the Bush become today? [00:04:12] Speaker B: Yeah, look, we still run our camps, but our camps are now probably 10% of our programs or time. What we do now and where our most impact is, is in our mentoring programs. So back in the day, when we were running camps for a couple of years, it was just more so as a hobby for us. We enjoyed doing it. Doing it. We were teachers and that's what we thought we'd keep doing. But today, you know, we're over 100 employees across 11 communities in New South Wales and Victoria. We've been in front of close to 20,000 kids across all of our programs. There's different touch points with our programs where we're supporting larger groups, but our intensive programs, as is our mentoring, it's still our camps, but, you know, we're impacting much more than the kids. We're changing communities that we're working in. And that's, I guess, where the beauty in how we do things, it's how we're different to a lot of others, is we're involved in communities now to be a part of the solution for the kids. And, you know, we're being asked by decision makers and politicians and our advice on things. You know, who would have thought a handful of years ago people would be asking us for advice? We were making it up as we went, it seemed at the time. But what we do now hasn't changed too much. It's have the kid at the forefront of our thinking and make our decisions based on their best interests. [00:05:51] Speaker A: Mate certainly come from humble beginnings and now you're in charge of, again, a very large organization. There's lots of people relying on you and looking up to you and stuff like that. So what was that sort of moment? When did you first realize people were actually looking to you for leadership? [00:06:10] Speaker B: With Boys to the Bush, it's probably been when we're faced with really challenging times that I've realised people actually looking for leadership. And we've had some really tough times. We've had kids die fleeing domestic and family violence. We've had kids murdered. And it's. And it's when, you know, Covid's probably another one. When the challenge of COVID we were only just setting up and the. There was people just saying, right, it's too hard, let's pack up. And I think that's where I understood how I reacted to those situations was going to help dictate how others felt and how others reacted. And we're all about, with the kids modeling how we want other people to behave. So that's when I think, probably for the first time in my life that, you know, I actually have to. I have to think about how I lead at the moment. I'd never really thought about it in the past and it's something I'm well aware of now and I think it's something that all of our team and our volunteers understand now that we've got a real responsibility to think about how we lead because we are having a big impact on other people around us. But yeah, it's probably those challenging times right now. There's financial pressures with changes to ndis and you know, uncertainty around bits and pieces. But if we try and run and hide and pretend everything's okay and you know, it's gonna set us up for failure, I feel. So I think it's just taking them on head on, sharing that. Yep, there's challenges, but we'll get around it. But that's, that's how I kind lead at the moment. [00:08:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And it was really interesting because it was only yesterday afternoon or last night or late yesterday afternoon, you sent me a text and you know, saying that, look, I've been through some stuff and look, geez, I feel a bit inadequate or I can't remember the exact word you use, but you had these various guests on the show and I just thought, like, there's a level of humility there, but it's also sort of bordering on the side where we talk about humility. It's not about not being confident in what you. You're doing and under your selling yourself. So I think you're sitting on that side of humility where you're underselling yourself because you're achieving so much, you've achieved so much. And a story that you told me off air around how this sort of started, I suppose, and then the boy coming in. So now with all this journey and all these ups and downs and hundreds of staff and countless kids, unbelievable involvement and being integrated into communities, what does actually leadership look like for you today? Now, what's your definition of leadership or what does it look like? [00:09:16] Speaker B: Well, I think just to go back a little bit, like sending you the message around it. I think I've listened to some of your podcasts and I listen to lots of podcasts. I love it and I love trying to learn, but I know who I am and who I'm not and that sort of thing. So I'm certainly not going to be your most articulate or educated person coming on here. I'm not proclaiming to be a great leader or anything, but there might be some things I do that resonate with some people. I'm happy to share that, but it is kind of embarrassing. It's not. I don't see myself as an expert, but understand, yeah. That yeah, I am a leader, as most of us are. For me, I think what leadership means is that we're all leaders. You don't need that title to be a leader. You know, you don't need to be a CEO. I was leading before I was A CEO of Boys to the Bush. And I think leadership takes courage to act on stuff. Not just, you know, lots of us see things around us that we don't agree with or want to change. But, you know, leadership just does take courage. And for me, I like to think my leadership style is about being real and authentic, showing up and just focusing on what matters to me and to those around me and to boys to the Bush. So it's a pretty simple philosophy, I guess, but I'm a pretty simple person. [00:10:57] Speaker A: Mate. Authenticate. Real, authentic and real. That's what people love the most about anybody. I think when people don't come across as that, there's that connection lost. And look, in some of the rooms you would have gone to over many years of running Boys to the Bush, I think you would definitely have seen there's a level of. There's authentic you and then there's other people that you're probably dealing with and you can smell non authentic a mile away. I'm sure. [00:11:22] Speaker B: Spot on. The kids are the best at that. The kids we work with, they've got a real good BS radar. They. They pick it up real quick. [00:11:35] Speaker A: Yeah, it's amazing. I was telling you again off air, but we've got a couple of kids in our care at the moment and it just, you know, I was super excited to talk to you anyway around what you're doing and stuff like that. But then I guess having these little ones in our care at the moment and when you talked about the, you know, the. You affectionately call them rat bags from time to time and they are. Absolutely. We've got an affectionate little rat bag, but he's our rat bag at the moment and you do feel like you're rousing at them all the time and it's hard and it makes you feel bad and stuff. But I don't know about you. I've always got a. And myself and my wife talk about this a lot. Like, we've got to make sure we stay, keep our eye on the long term. Like this is our job now and they haven't had this. So we've got to affectionately pull them into line and get them structured and know what the difference is between doing the right thing and the wrong thing is and stuff like that. But it's bloody hard in the moment. You actually feel like a bad person, don't you? [00:12:28] Speaker B: Yeah, spot on. But. But you're right, it's. It's one. It's given them what they've never had and that's those boundaries and consistency. I think the easiest thing as a parent, you do it time. From time to time is say yes and give them what they need to keep them happy. But it's not always the best thing to be doing for the kids long term, particularly a lot of the kids we're working for, working with, sorry, is that they. They get what they want, they get to do what they want when they want. If they want something, they go get it, whether that's legally or not. So I guess going back to why it changed for me and that story of that kid calling me when he was really calling us, when he was really sick, that's testament to what we're talking about. Like for him, it was those boundaries and the consistency is why, you know, all I saw was the rousing. He saw something else. [00:13:26] Speaker A: Yeah, it's amazing. My kids, they certainly help us see a whole different perspective through a really clear lens. Our lenses are a little bit tarnished. [00:13:35] Speaker B: That'S for sure, mate. [00:13:37] Speaker A: How do you. Again, your own leadership and your style, very real, very authentic. But how do you help others see themselves as leaders and, you know, when they don't believe they are or they don't believe in themselves? [00:13:52] Speaker B: To be honest, I'm not sure if I do that particularly well with my team, but I certainly need to. I've always tried to make sure people feel valued for what they are contributing to us, but I think empowering them to make mistakes and stick to playing to their strengths, that's, I think, something that we should celebrate and push for more. But when we talk about leaders, it's, you know, from a kid's perspective, I think it's about empowering them to. Or not empowering them, but supporting them to gain purpose and set values, then pushing them to make decisions based on those principles. That's really important. Often it's really tricky because these kids are trying to escape environments and lives and behaviours that are so ingrained and so normal. Normal for them. It's often multiple generations of stuff we're trying to help them out of. That can take real willpower from these kids and it takes leadership for them to get out of that situation. So, like all of us, you know, everyone likes a pat on the back. I think to support them in their leadership is to point out and give them those pats on the back, you know, along their journey. And if their journey for leadership is standing up and trying to get out of a situation they're in, then that's their journey and that's their leadership journey. So our job's to empower them, to remind them it's worth doing and just do it as often as we can for the littlest thing. And again, reflecting on my leadership, it's something I probably have neglected a little bit with our crew because they are all leaders in their own right, but we all get busy in our own sort of space. But it's certainly something that yeah, I want to do better for our, for our team because they are such phenomenal leaders in each of their communities. [00:16:00] Speaker A: So what do you want to do better? What's that one thing you would do better or you want to take and start? [00:16:07] Speaker B: I think it's giving them the time and being present for them. You know, I deal with sort of such a holistic approach to the organization and time is limited, but I think it's, you know, and understand how I can't do it myself too. We've built out a team of sort of leaders that need to support each other. So it's. I guess, I guess what I need to do is understand that I can't do it all for them and finding ways that we can continue to support each other to be better leaders and look after each other. But yeah, I guess that's the start is understanding that if you're trying to do it all for everyone, I won't get anything done. And that's probably been a big sort of thing that I've done poorly to date, I would say. But you know, maybe that's been hard on myself. But yeah, it's certainly somewhere I want to be better. [00:17:21] Speaker A: I guess the best thing about it is your, your awareness to it and you know, being a, one of the co founders and you know, so being there from before day one and then the organization's growing into this 100 person organization like we said, touching so many communities and lives. There's a whole heap of growth that has to in us, in our mind and how we approach things. And you want to still be that organization where you're really touching everyone in the organization but it's actually just physically not possible. You've got to put your love and attention on your senior team and then those people need to be empowered to put their love and attention on their team and go from there. And then you still come in and hopefully you're spending time on the ground at camps and things like that and really staying in touch with the day to day. But it's a hard mindset to break through because it's just, it's just physically impossible to be able to do that. In an organization of your level and try and feel like you're getting down at the grassroots all the time. [00:18:15] Speaker B: Yeah, spot on. And I'd say over the last 12, 18 months, I've probably stepped too far away from who I am and where my strengths are. But again, I'm aware of that and learning from it. This is my first crack at being involved in a charity, a business, an organization, whatever you like. So it's something I am well aware of. You know, I'm planning to be on a camp pretty soon, which the staff already reminded me that I'll have no idea what goes on and what to do. [00:18:54] Speaker A: I'm sure they've got a dunk a dolly lined up or something. [00:18:57] Speaker B: It's Duncan Adams. Yeah. That we've introduced, you know, systems and reporting and all this stuff to it that we're, you know, there's been teething problems with. And, you know, and I'm always pushing them. You've got to do it. You got to do it. So I've got to study up before I get there and pretend I know what I'm doing. Because I've been telling them a fair bit that they need to be doing this and that better. [00:19:18] Speaker A: It sounds like you might be one of these rat bags on the camp, buddy. [00:19:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Yep. That's part of the beauty of our camps. It's part of the beauty of who we are, is we are rat bags. You know, the people we get to work for us in our communities, they're just real people, you know, like, we're not. We've got people from all walks of life that they're giving up their careers to make this their life. You know, people that have been sharing their whole life. People that were police officers, school teachers, Rickies, laborers, you name it. They're just genuine people that give a shit about kids and their community and genuinely want to do something to make it better. That's what I love about it, is we are real. A lot of us were would have been these rat bag kids, Some more so than others. So it is handy, too, because plenty of our crew sort of are one step ahead of the kids in their thinking. [00:20:19] Speaker A: Guess they have to be. Let's talk to that a little bit about the qualities of the people that really work well in your organization. What sort of qualities do they need to have to really be, you know, a strong piece of the fabric of boys to the bush? [00:20:36] Speaker B: It's hard to put your finger on, because whilst we're all very similar, we're all very different. I think A common trait among all of them is they're empathetic people. They're genuine, they're authentic and they're straight shooters. What you see is what you get. And they're. They're willing to sacrifice their own time for the kids and for the community. So it is hard. Like there's not a. People often ask, you know, when they're looking at, you know, inquiring about employment and stuff with us is, you know, what training and what degrees do you need to get a job with you guys working with the kids? And there isn't. There isn't a degree there. There isn't any training. We always say that the training's your. Your journey to date. It's the mentors you had as kids, typically family, parents. It's, it's. Yeah, it's having those real examples to fall back on when you're dealing with kids. So it is a tricky one because everyone just brings different qualities to the job and it makes them brilliant at the job. And all the kids are different. So we're now able, because we've got people from all walks and all backgrounds, we're able to match the kids up much better. You know, you can't get along with every kid and you can't connect with every kid, or some kids are much harder to connect with unless you have something in common. So that's where. Now that we have a bit more, there's more of us to choose from. It's easy to match the kids and start making impact much sooner. [00:22:27] Speaker A: It sounds like it's one of those situations where you need the degree of life. [00:22:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:22:30] Speaker A: Just real life, real situations. [00:22:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it's spot on. You do. You just need to understand that you need to be flexible is probably a really important one. And the other one is you've got to have a bloody thick skin because you're gonna be called everything and challenged on everything. Particularly early days with the kids, they'll go their hardest at you. So if you're a bit. If you can't handle that sort of stuff, it's certainly not the place to be in working face to face with the kids, there's probably a spot there for you to support in other ways. But certainly when you're working face to face with a lot of these kids, if you haven't got a thick skin, you're not going to last long. [00:23:16] Speaker A: Yeah, kids with these sort of backgrounds, they do have an amazing aptitude to identify weakness in others, don't they? And that can be a good thing. And not A good thing. And often I think they take it from a. Maybe not a good place, but. How's your all body calluses going, mate, with that thick skin? [00:23:34] Speaker B: Oh, mate, yeah, go your hardest. It's. I probably have copped, you know it all my life from mates and you know, just with our, our humor and how we treat each other and that sort of thing. So not much phase. [00:23:50] Speaker A: It's probably why your team wants you to be on a, on a camp, mate. I reckon your calluses are softening up. They want to harden you up again. [00:23:55] Speaker B: Exactly. But yeah, it's all part of it and you know, everyone deals with it differently but you know, it's one thing we explain to all the staff that are working with the kids that the stuff they're throwing at you when they're going hard at you, they don't mean anything by it. It's not you. You've done nothing to upset them and there's a reason behind it and you're not that reason. We just got to keep showing up and it changes, it turns. [00:24:29] Speaker A: It's a good lead into talking about trust, mate. Because all of these kids generally have come from situations where there is just no trust. They're in very unsafe environments. So how do you build trust with boys like that? I've grown up in those sort of environments. Where do you even start? [00:24:46] Speaker B: As I just said, you just keep showing up. You need to work hard at it, you've got to earn. Doesn't come easy. But puts like what we do and how we do build that trust because we do connect with the toughest kids. That's what we are really good at. And it's by just giving them your time and being consistent. They're two things that they've probably never had is someone's genuine time and consistent, you know, consistency in messaging, in boundaries, sticking to the rules that we set with the kids. What you gotta understand is these kids that have never sort of, they've grown up with broken trust is when they are going hard at you, all they're trying to do is rip off the bit, rip the band aid off. They don't wanna, they don't wanna build a connection with you because to them you're only gonna let them down like everyone else has. So that's why they're going hard at you, is they want you to hate them straight away. So they don't build a connection, they wanna find an excuse not to like you, all that sort of stuff. And we've just got to keep showing up, keep being Consistent and it will turn. And that's why we need to employ people to do this. For the kids, relying on volunteers means because they're volunteers, other things become a priority and pop up and. But for these kids that are relying on it and have never had it, though, you know, just because your, your kid's sick and you've had to stay home and cancel your session with the kid or to them, that's massive. So that's really important is that consistency keep showing up. And then I think once we connect with the kids, it's introduced them to more people that can replicate that, giving them consistency, more people from their community to model those behaviors. Yeah, that's. For some kids in our programs, that building of trust is all we're working on, building that rapport. And for some kids, it might take two years. It took us two years, I think, back early days, it took us pretty much two years to get a kid to leave his house. You know, that's showing up every once a week, every week at the same time. And him refusing to leave his bedroom. It might have taken a month before we were smart enough to think, how about we turn up with a bacon egg roll and a milkshake and, you know, and then it was like baby steps. Let's get him to the lounge room and sit and chat there for an hour. After six or 12 months, you know, it was getting towards the front door and then by the end of it, it was getting him out of the house and doing a lap around the block and just chatting in the car. And that young fellow, he's full circle. Like, he, he's. He's working full time now, holds down a job, living independently. And when we cut through for that kid, you know, we actually had my brother, actually, he saved the kid's life one night. But for that kid, his dark place, why he was in that dark place was such a simple thing. It was a debt owed to Centrelink or something or other, which, once we found that out after 18 months or so, it was simple. We called Centrelink. We got to the bottom of it, there was an error at their end. They wiped the debt. The kid was home and hosed. He was happy. And if it wasn't their fault and they didn't wipe it, we would have wiped it. We would have found a way to wipe it for him so he could crack on with the rest of his life. But without spending the 18 months and him opening up about why he was in that place, we would have had a whole different outcome. So it Just takes time. And sometimes people don't have time. And, and it's a struggle for us when, you know, funding opportunities want magical outcomes really quick. And it's not real sexy to say, hey, you know, it's taken us 12 months to get a kid to get to his lounge room, but that 12 months led to us saving a kid's life. So yeah, it's. And trust is everything with us and the kids, and we understand the importance of it and value it and we don't let the kids down. Yeah, that's the magic. [00:29:08] Speaker A: Yeah, it is magic. And I'm not sure if, you know, maybe you do, but I think in what you've just said, the two things that just resonate to me, and it's just so, it's so simple, but powerful and applicable in life in general, is that you invest time in people and you be consistent. And to me, like you've summed up that is, that's what leadership's about. Because when you're investing time in people, you're learning about people. When you're being consistent, you're doing things repeatedly and you're, you're learning through that cycle. So then you're learning yourself and you can continue to invest time and you can continue to be consistent and progress some in some consistency around that. Like, it's just, when did that, when did, when did that come to you? Like, is that something that just you felt has just been innate with you and maybe through your own upbringing and what you've had the privilege of having, or was there a moment in time where that investment in time and being consistent, like, this is the thing, we just do this, this is boys to the bush. This is the fabric of what we do. [00:30:08] Speaker B: I think myself and my co founders, it goes back to our childhoods. Like we were really fortunate, all three of us to have loving families. We were spoiled, but we weren't. None of us were wealthy and super rich or anything like that. And what, what we were spoiled with was our parents love and our parents time. And that's what made us who we are and that's what our team replicate for the kids. It's, it's. We don't have to, like, our programs aren't thrill a minute, our camps aren't high energy ropes courses. I don't sell them real well, but we don't give the kids a whole heap of stuff other than our time. That's what they want. That's what all kids want, that's what all of us want, is to have people's time and to be present and in such a busy world, it's becoming a lot more foreign to everyone. So, yeah, I think that's where it all came from is, you know, we all recognized how fortunate we were because our parents gave us exactly what we needed. Time and boundaries and rules and pats on the back and all that sort of stuff. All the simple stuff that most of us were fortunate enough to have. But there's so, so many out there that have never, never had it. [00:31:40] Speaker A: Yeah, mate, again, so much resonates that I'm just thinking in my head, we've through the fostering side, we've had bubs, newborns taken from the hospital that they've come into our lives in, and then little ones, toddlers and 4, 5 year olds, that sort of stuff. And there's a fundamental difference, like when a parent, when there's a visit or supervise that when they're a bub, they are just like, there's nothing you can really buy the bub, right? There's nothing for them to be impressed by. So mum or dad or both are spending time with, with Bob. They're just holding Bob and building some sort of connection, which is really sweet and powerful. But then as the kids are a little bit older and the ones we've got now, you know, visit always means there's, there's some sort of food and, you know, some sort of toy and again, not knocking that, but like you said, the kids just want to spend time. And actually what we've seen happen in this current situation is that it's still about spending time, but certainly the older one talks more about what he's going to get from mummy when he gets there, as opposed to the quality time they're spending. So you just like, it's framing it up in a child that you're bringing materialistic value to their world rather than investing time in people. Can you like. Have you got an example of where that sort of spoken to you so loudly or would you just speak to that comment? [00:33:04] Speaker B: Yeah, look, one experience that comes to mind again, early days and it's the young fellow I spoke about at the very beginning who was that rat bag and he got crook with cancer. And so he was nine months in hospital in Sydney, going through his cancer treatment and outside of his auntie, no visitors. So we arranged times where we go and visit and stuff like that and organise footballers to go see him and all that sort of thing that we could do. But on one occasion I was in Sydney, I'd arranged a trip to Sydney. And I'd arranged to get his cousin, his best mate, who's also rat bagged for our programs. And he's another story in himself. But I organized for him to get to Sydney, meet me in Sydney. And I'd planned this magical day. We got him out of hospital and so I had the day plan. We're jumping on the ferry. We're going to Luna Park. We were going to Manly Beach. I had a budget set aside where we're going to go to any fancy restaurant they wanted movies, all the. Whatever they wanted. The thrills and spills and jet boats and all this stuff. I had it all planned, like, to a T. Anyway, jumped on this ferry headed to Manly for, you know, trip number to tick that off my, my list of amazing things for the day. And we're on the ferry and I bloody got on the wrong ferry. And so that put me back and canceled out Luna Park. And I was starting to stress and it's like, duh, you know, this is meant to be this kid's best days been in hospital. And anyway, we ended up jumping on another ferry, wrong ferry. And These two, these two young boys are about 15 at the time, were just taking the piss out of me the whole time. And I was. They could see I was cranky because I planned this amazing day. And then we got back to Circular Quay and I'm like, right, lunchtime, we've just wasted half the day, you know, what restaurant do you want to go to, you know, thinking they're going to want something fancy, like, can we just get McDonald's? And I'm like, we're not getting bloody McDonald's. You know, like, we can go to the top of the biggest tower here and eat in a fancy restaurant. And they're like, can we just get McDonald's? All right, so we got the McDonald's. And then I'm right, we can go down here and get on these speedboat things, you know, and, and do this. And they're like, oh, yeah, right. And they weren't that keen. And I was getting frustrated because I was just like, oh, you're ungrateful. Like, I've planned all this stuff. And they're like, can we just go fishing? And I'm like thinking to myself, like, you can do that anytime at home. And, you know, that's what you just. That's what you do at home. Anyway, we end up hiring or buying a couple of little cheap fishing rods or something and. And we're fishing under that. I've got a beautiful photo of it, but fishing under the Harbour Bridge. And I don't know if that's legal or what, but we were. And no fish were harmed. But I remember at a moment there, I'm sitting back and they're just, they. They're chatting and laughing and they're watching buskers and just having the time of their life, mainly hanging shit on me. But I was sitting back going, you know, it's cost me 100 bucks for today. I'd plan to spend thousands and give them this day. And all they wanted to do is hang out with each other, with me. I didn't have to, you know. And in hindsight, the time wasn't wasted. You couldn't have scripted it better. Me getting on the wrong boats and wrong bloody buses and stuff during the day. It just bought us more time. So that's kind of how our camps and our mentoring. Thankfully, we're not as hopeless as I am at organizing things, but it's all about setting up opportunities to spend time together. So we do so many trips with the kids places, and it's about the trip in the car out to the farm and the chats we have. And then everyone thinks all we do is go fishing. We do lots of fishing with the kids, but it's not about catching fish because we don't catch too many, to be honest. It's about sitting on the banks of the river with someone, often not talking, but being present with them. And I think that's. That's. Again, that's the stuff that is so hard to find these days, but it's what everyone's craving. [00:37:19] Speaker A: Yeah, it sounds like the world needed to teach you something, mate, and you were a willing student to learn, so well done. Again, you mentioned earlier in the conversation around that people are certainly from whether donors or funding, government funding side of stuff, they're looking for that sexy thing or they're looking for that special source or whatever, which you're talking about a lot, just investing time and connection. But how do you. How do you explain it to people like these? These stories are so resonating for me and, and I'm sure for many people, but like in our world, we are looking for complicated, we're looking for smart. And if you don't tick, as you said, if you don't tick certain boxes, then the reality is you just don't get certain funding and, and you need funding, you know, to. To survive in these sort of things. So how do you. How do you make that balance work and still be organisation through all the Good people and the governments that help you. But then keep it simple yet effective and powerful on the ground. [00:38:22] Speaker B: Yeah, that's one of the big challenges we face at the moment is we're not pigeonholed into a specific category because we are proper early intervention and prevention for everything. We're working with the kids, we're stopping kids from dying by suicide, we know all this stuff. We're stopping them from going to jail, reconnecting with schools, with family, we're doing all that stuff, but we're not doing one over the other. And it is hard to kind of sell yourself to funding opportunities when you do tick so many boxes without being an expert in one. I think what we're understanding now is, and we do have our own impact measurement tools and stuff now, which is what a lot of funding opportunities require. But it is that balancing act is staying true to who we are and not, not going too far from that and trying to sell the story to more people. And I think people really, really what really resonates with them is the simplicity of what we do and people can see the long term benefits of it. We just need to ensure more decision makers understand that it's not about the outcome in five minutes for this kid. It's five years or it's a generation before we're going to see these changes. But we need to invest in people that are working towards that proper change, not the change in five minutes and a quick photo opportunity. That's not us. It's hurt us with funding in the past because we weren't willing to, to kind of do things that went away from who we were and our purpose. There was a really good example a couple of years ago. I was in parliament with a politician who's been a great supporter of ours and I was giving him a bit of an update on how things were going and he said, oh, it'd be great if you could come back in 12 months and said, you got 100 kids a job. And my response was, that's easy. I can do that in two weeks. Like among our network, across all our communities, the community will give the jobs. We will lean on mates to create jobs for these kids. But the issue is they're not going to have a job in two weeks if we don't put stuff around them. So our focus is getting five kids a job and coming back to you in 12 months and saying, hey, those five kids are still in a job. And unfortunately how things are set up is people want to invest in those hundred kids in the job. And they're not particularly concerned about what happens two weeks later after they've given the job. As long as they can say they've got the job or their funding has supported those jobs. And we need more people to think that way because it is going to take time and it's going to be you know a generation before we see the proper change of what we're doing in other organizations like us like what we are doing. Yeah. [00:41:25] Speaker A: Thanks for sharing mate. It is unfortunate isn't it? There's a lot of short sightedness in this sort of stuff and from a political perspective they're after those quick numbers, quick wins so it looks good on the next news headline and stuff like that. But good long term change takes some time and that generates. Isn't it in the indigenous communities which again I know you're working a lot in. Isn't that seventh generation rule where you've got to start to make decisions and think about seven generations ahead. That's real long term thinking. [00:41:51] Speaker B: Yeah, spot on. And it is really hard like we, it's hard for us to think that far ahead but you've got to like if you want to make change you've got to think ahead and not about what's impacting you or them right now. It's how it's going to impact them in the future and that's one thing I'm really proud of. Our board have always thought that way. Our executive team think that way, our staff think that way, our communities are thinking that way. Whilst we're only in 11 communities but communities are starting to understand the role they play and it's not about short term win. There's a real appetite in communities for that. They want to look after their own, they want to invest in the kids now and that's kind of what we've been able to help achieve. [00:42:40] Speaker A: Speaking community mate and such an integral part of what you're doing. What does from your perspective and boyz to the bush perspective perspective what does community led actually mean. [00:42:54] Speaker B: For us? It's empowering the community to be a part of the solution. So the first step in that most communities don't quite understand what's going on in their backyard particularly with the kids we're working with. I didn't understand these kids lived were out there. But when you open the community's eyes up to and that's what we do by bringing the kids onto their farms and into their businesses and holding community events and things like that by explaining to them the environments and the circumstances some of These kids have grown up in, and that's why they're displaying behaviours that we were all whinging about in the community. You know, these kids are the ones that are causing us grief in the community by explaining to them it's not their fault, it's just the byproduct of what they've been born into. People start to think with a more empathetic lens and then our role is to give them opportunities and present opportunities for them to help. Say, okay, it's one thing to talk about making change, but, righto, what are you going to do to support? And we give them opportunities. And I think typically people think help and charity is donating money and that's about all you can do. But with us, you know, obviously money is a bit. Is a big part of it. We're never going to knock back someone that wants to donate money. But not everyone has money for other people. It's open up the gates to their farm or the doors to their business to allow an opportunity for the kid to come in and see what goes on on your farm and more. So how people interact and behave, that's what you can do. Other people, it's donating an old bike that's no longer used at home and we can pass that on to the kid and then suddenly they feel a part of it and it's the local butcher. When we have a Barbie at Bunnings to raise money, he'll donate the snags or do it at half price, and that's what he can do to support us, to help the kids. And then suddenly we explain to the kid that that's how everyone in this community, that they think they're so disconnected or brought up to not fully understand, they suddenly start realising there's so many people on their team in their backyard and that's something that's been foreign to them because of the environment they've been brought up in. So our goal is to make ourselves redundant to make enough introductions in the community and to connect them to enough services and people that do magic in the community so they don't need us. That's our goal. And it's 100% working with kids. It's still only early days, but the communities are starting to take control of the futures of these kids. They're the ones that are giving them the opportunities, not us. We're just facilitating the connection and the relationships. [00:45:50] Speaker A: Do you think a model like this could work for the city? [00:45:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I do. [00:45:57] Speaker A: What would need to change? Or would anything need to change in order to make it work. And why ask that question just again? My wife grew up in a small English country town and, you know, community, I feel like on the central coast here it's big enough to not be too small, but you've still got that community feel. But, you know, when, you know, I grew up in Brisby and we had a community there in our local area, but you were in Brisbane, a bigger place, and now and Sydney, like it's a bigger. But it just. They just feel there's a different mindset to me around the majority of the people in those sort of environments. In cities versus, you know, regional communities, they really value community. [00:46:36] Speaker B: I think it's probably easier to replicate in the smaller locations just because, you know. Well, that's what we know. But it's easy to replicate in the smaller towns because community is everything and. And people really generally feel a sense of community and connection to the community in saying that. There's been a, I think a bit more of a disconnect more recently, but in cities I think it's more about creating micro communities. And like, I'm in Albury, Wodonga, it's a big place, so it's not like everyone knows everyone. Like people in the city think we all know everyone's name first hand and that sort of thing. But what we do here is create our little micro community. So people, the connecting thing is us. So we're connecting the businesses and the farmers and the kids and the volunteers. And the common thing is boys to the bush. So that can be done in cities, in suburbs, creating those micro communities. It's about communicating to each other who's part of that community. So it's not something I've spent a whole leap of time thinking on the city stuff. We get asked all the time, but our focus at the moment is regional and rural communities because the stats show that the kids, the boys are battling in these areas far more than they are in metropolitan areas and far more than girls are. So that is our focus. But the demand would be in city areas. The demand's for girls as well. But boys in rural and regional Australia are battling more so than others. [00:48:24] Speaker A: So on that. Is that a space where you would like boys to the bush? That would be a girls to the bush element at some point, or is it just, you know, this is the. [00:48:32] Speaker B: Lane you're in at the moment. That's the lane we're in. Like I said, most asked question, what are we doing to help the girls and when are we going to Start helping girls. And you never say never. But right now where we're at, we're still tidying up who we are and understanding who we are. But the way I answer the question when we're asked about the girl stuff is that we're doing a lot to help girls by creating better men. And you look at the environments we're dragging, not dragging kids from, but we're working on kids and where they're from. These are the kids that are going to grow up and be perpetrators of domestic and family violence. We know that because that's what their normal is. And by intervening and showing them that's that isn't normal, we're doing a hell of a lot to help girls. And by creating better father, you know, better fathers, less absent dads, that's helping girls. But you know, teaching them, you know, that how to respect women, that's all part of what we do with these kids. It's all those values that unfortunately some kids aren't lucky enough to be born into environments where those sort of traits are valued. And I think if we do our job really well, which we are, we're helping a lot of other spaces that people don't necessarily think about. And one of them is that domestic and prevention of family violence that starts with the men and it starts with the kids we're working with. And if we're not giving them the message, they're not getting the message and nothing will change. [00:50:14] Speaker A: Mate, I love that answer. And I didn't ask the question certainly from the perspective of like, you know, why aren't you doing something for girls? Because I'm 100% on board with you, like what you're doing, how you've answered that, kids, boys, little boys and bigger boys, teenagers that we need, we need quality male role models and call that old fashioned or whatever you want to call it. But you know, there's the research is that like you need that strong presence in a family, in that nuclear family. To me, which is anyway, it's probably not something we should dive too far into. But yeah, having that strong sense and sense of self in a young boy and growing up into a young man, then he learns to love himself, therefore he can start to love others. He's looking after people, he's respecting everybody, not just female, but his own mates or whatever in the world. And that just creates a whole better place, doesn't it? [00:51:09] Speaker B: Yeah, spot on. And it's, I think I touched on it right at the start, is creating purpose and values for the kid and then it's no different to us as an organization. It's what you keep coming back to with your decision making. That's. That's what we're striving towards and for their kids is instilling that in them. You know, these are the values. This is how you act and pat them on the back when they're making those baby steps towards those goals and those values. [00:51:41] Speaker A: Mate, I want to just sort of touch on yourself and your team actually. So you've affectionately called them rat bags. So let's go with that. So you're spending a lot of time with affectionately rat bags from time to time camps and all those sort of stuff. So what is. I know what it's like from a caring perspective. How does your team fill your cup? What do you make sure that your team's doing to switch off a bit and make sure they're just looking after themselves so they can be. When they're at Boys to the Bush or camp or whatever, a program or being a mentor, they're their best self. [00:52:14] Speaker B: Our team, our staff. You're talking about your team, Your staff. [00:52:17] Speaker A: Yes. [00:52:18] Speaker B: I guess that's a real challenge. And given we're relatively young as an organization, there's not a whole heap of staff or team members here that have been in the role, you know, beyond probably four or five years as our longer serving staff members. So. But it's something we are starting to have to deal with right now with fatigue and burnout and looking for avenues to support. Because I've mentioned a number of times it's not for everyone. It's a really tricky thing. But I think firstly what we need to recognize is it does take a special kind of someone to do this job. And understanding it's not for everyone being upfront when we're recruiting people to come and work with us, like we probably display or we show all the warm and fuzzy stuff, but the reality of it is it's one step forward, two back or two. Two forward and 12 back at times it feels. But I think the other part we do to support the staff is we're always talking about celebrating the like with the kids, celebrating all those little wins with the kids. But when you're celebrating those wins, understanding it's you that's made that created that win for the kid and not going too far from that like. And some of our biggest wins have been teaching a kid to brush their teeth. You don't know what impact that had on one young fellow. That was the reason he hadn't been to school. For two years, he was embarrassed about his teeth because no one had showed him how to brush his teeth. But I remember that staff member came to us and they said, you know, oh, the kid didn't know how to brush his teeth, taught him to brush his teeth. And then we spoke about, you know, right o. If he brushes his teeth every day for a week and comes back, we'll give him a hat or a pat on the back, you know, and we didn't realize, I didn't certainly how big an impact that. That small act of that staff member who didn't even think about. It's like he got a toothbrush and some toothpaste and taught him. But it's like you don't realize how important what you did for that kid is. Like, it took a while for me to. And we're doing that. Our team are doing that 10, 20 times a day each with every kid. They're working with those little things and. And understand if you didn't give that message or you didn't say that thing to them or give them this experience, they would have never had it. I think probably the other thing is that our staff are getting better at debriefing with each other. You know, they're real people. Using humor is always a good part of it along the journey and understanding that, you know, yeah, it's hard sometimes and you probably sound like you don't have a heart when we are using humour, but it does help. I think the final thing I've kind of tried to push is that. So people would often always ask me, and I'm sure they ask our team the same question all the time. It's like you hear all these horrific, traumatic things from the kids are about the kids and how do you sleep at night? And. And my answer was always simple and I say it to the team all the time, is that I've always slept well and you should always sleep well knowing that, A, you hear these stories, but B, you're doing something about it. And that's why I sleep well at night, because we are doing something about it and we are creating better futures for the kids. And if I or the team understood these circumstances and what's going on with those kids and weren't doing anything to make real change, yeah, it would be a battle trying to sleep at night, but we are genuinely finding ways to push through it and I think that's a really important message to continue giving to the team. [00:56:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I couldn't agree more, mate. What's your toughest moment and it doesn't mean to mean that it's related specifically to one of the stories of the kids, but just that real down moment in business, you know what, what does that look like for you? [00:56:29] Speaker B: It's a good question. It's not one I've probably thought about. There's. There's lots of ups and downs I think for me. [00:56:38] Speaker A: Absolutely. Business is full of ups and downs, mate, isn't it? [00:56:41] Speaker B: It is. I think there's probably a couple of parts to it. So I'm someone that's, it's dealt with mental health problems, their life and I've only sort of owned it, you know, in the last kind of decade a bit and. But understanding you can't be up all the time as much as you want to be. And I say we want to be modelling these behaviors. But I think, you know, given some of the stuff that we have dealt with when we are connected to these kids, it's hard trying to keep that brave face for the team and for the kids. And when deep down it tears you apart or if you can't help the kid for whatever reason, that genuinely hurts because you know, all we want to do is make it better for everyone and sometimes we can't. And we've had to grow and evolve and change how we do things and some things I don't agree with but to impact more kids we've had to. And I think the other part for me that's been difficult is just the growing pains of an organization. We're knock about type people and we'll very much knock about type organization but we're a big organization now and you're under the microscope, you're dealing with vulnerable kids, you're dealing with other people's money. So we've always had good governance but it's under the microscope more so. But we have to be careful because if we make mistakes or don't do things properly, it's hurting a whole lot more than just the couple of us that were doing it early days. So trying to get that message across to the crew that are working with the kids and the communities that yeah, we don't want to change and be too fancy and whatever, we still want to be who we are but there's just some things we have to tighten up on and processes we have to follow and we need to report differently and you know, there's things out of our control. But yeah, that's been something that's been a challenge for me because I'm someone and most of us are people that just want to crack on and do the right thing by the kids. But sometimes doing the right thing by the kid can impact a whole lot of other kids. And now people that rely on boys for the bush. [00:59:06] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And unfortunately it feels like sometimes in society nowadays where there's always, if you just get that one thing wrong, there's always someone out there to, you know, to pinpoint that and to escalate it to people and stuff like that, rather than the, you know, the 300,000 other great things that you're doing as an organization and lives you're impacting. [00:59:25] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And that's probably worth mentioning is for me personally, I'm not in front of the kids and you probably do get your head buried down with those two or three complaints or the couple of issues you might be having with team members or funding pressures and you lose sight of. I forget that there's, you know, today as you and I speak and there's probably 200 kids out there getting one on one mentoring and having the best day of their lives and learning all this stuff. You can lose sight of that. It's, it's my favorite part of it is when you do get out there and only yesterday we were doing some filming stuff and I was out on a farm and the kids were there and they were just wrestling and getting muddy and they're just the shot in the arm you need, you know, to remind you that this is why, you know, I've had my head buried in a spreadsheet for a week and stuff like that. That makes it worth it. [01:00:26] Speaker A: Mate. It so resonates again. Many years ago now I was heading up operations, part of a private independent school and it was K to 12 and I, when I, when those moments happened to me and I got too caught up in, you know, spreadsheets or whatever, I'd just go into the kindy room and I'd spend half an hour, an hour in the kindy room. And that was the best medicine I could ever have. Honestly, it was so good. [01:00:47] Speaker B: Yeah, look, I'm excited, as I said earlier, to be on a camp in a month or two's time and I probably won't be as excited by the end of the camp, but you'd probably. [01:00:58] Speaker A: Be pretty knackered, mate. [01:00:59] Speaker B: Like everyone thinks our camps, you know, it's the greatest job in the world. You just go on a camp with kids to go fishing and like the camps are the toughest, toughest thing that you can do. Like, and a lot of people say, can I volunteer on the camp. And we don't take too many volunteers to support on the camps because it's not. It's not all rainbows and sunshine. It's difficult. You've got one eye open the whole time and yeah, it's very draining. When the crew get back after a camp, it's important that they take some time to recharge. [01:01:35] Speaker A: Well, you just be careful, mate, because you talk about rat bags a lot and you've heard that saying about the average of the five people you spend the most time with. So you'll come back more of a rat bag, you know? [01:01:43] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, No, I miss it. I need it. [01:01:46] Speaker A: You need a bit of rat bag. [01:01:49] Speaker B: One of our good supporters, they always say they like that we're a little bit cheeky and don't lose our cheekiness, and that's who we are. So I know what she's talking about. [01:02:02] Speaker A: Absolutely, mate. Look, I know we're pushing time, but there's a couple of other questions I really wanted to make sure I asked you today. So what do you want business leaders to understand about their role in shaping the next generation? [01:02:17] Speaker B: I think it's important that they take time to understand the next generation and try and look at the world through their eyes, because it is a completely different perspective on the world as most of us probably look at it. I think it's important that leaders, business leaders, invest in people that are genuinely wanting to make change, positive change. And I think it's important that you focus on how you treat your team. That's something I'm really mindful of, is creating that culture. It's okay, like I openly am vulnerable in front of the stuff. I think it's a good thing, mate. I say I'm not a great leader, but I think that's something I do reasonably well and relatively easily. Like it comes easy is being vulnerable not having the answers for them all the time. Because most things I don't have the answer, I'm going to everyone else for the answers. And I think the other thing that leaders is important for leaders to think about when dealing with the next generation is think more about what you can give them than what you can get from them. Because you know you'll get a hell of a lot more out of them when they know you're there to help them and support them. That'll be a byproduct if you invest in them. Yeah. I don't know if any of that made any sense, mate, but that's my take on it, mate. [01:04:04] Speaker A: It makes perfect. Look it goes back to what you mentioned earlier, and we boil it down to invest time in them and be consistent sort of showing up and learning and understanding from their lens. So to me, very, very well said, mate. What's been your greatest lesson in your leadership journey since starting Boys to the Bush to now? [01:04:26] Speaker B: Yeah, right. I think, I think it's being so understanding what the problem is that you're trying to solve or your purpose and just staying true to that. And so building something that's solving a problem. Because if you're starting with that clear purpose and you commit to solving it, and you commit consistently and authentically, the growth then just becomes kind of organic to the organization. So it's something that was told to me by a board member and we've always had brilliant people on our board who are mentors. I'm really fortunate. I lean on them all the time. But that was something that was said to me, is that by getting your purpose and understanding why we're here, right, everything else takes care of itself. If you keep reverting back to that is why are we, why are we doing this? Why are we having these decisions? Why are we spending time on this? And by focusing on solving a problem, committing to it, then you know, the growth that needs to happen will happen. [01:05:43] Speaker A: Mate, I'm telling you, it's music to my ears. I'm sure if you asked many of my clients, it's probably the most asked question I ask them is what is the problem that you are trying to solve? Yeah, because it just brings back everything to this, whether it's that higher purpose or whether it's a, you know, an operational type problem in the business, just what is the problem? And then when you understand that, you can start to work on what solutions might look like. [01:06:05] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And it is so bloody simple. Like, we just overcomplicate everything. I feel like at times. But when you simplify it, you get the answers you need, you take the actions you need to take. So, yeah, it's been great advice. It's been sort of drummed in over the years too, to me. So I've been really fortunate with that, getting that good advice because again, it's our first crack at doing this. And I think that's probably another part of lessons learned. The other thing is probably early days. I saw everyone I spoke to or everyone that gave me advice as knowing more than me and everything. Every bit of advice I got, I thought I had to implement or act like, or every podcast I listened to or training course I did, I had to then be that person and be a leader like them and run a business like them and for so long, it's bloody confusing trying to be all these other things. So I think what I learned is you listen to it all, but grab the bits that you believe in and trust your gut. The last 12, 18 months, I don't think I've trusted my gut as well as I should have. And it's something that's been reminded to me more recently is like, get back to what's got us here and trust in your gut. You know, we don't need to be like other people. We don't need to set this up. We need to set it up the best for boys to the bush. So that's what we're focused on, mate. [01:07:54] Speaker A: Very well said. So if you could share one, grow your business lesson with SME business owners, what would it be, buddy? [01:08:04] Speaker B: I guess it's the same sort of thing. It's just focusing on. Focus your time on what you're trying to solve. Why are you there? What's the problem for us? We haven't grown because we've got the flashiest, most scientifically proven and researched programs in the world. We grew because we showed up. We solved problems, real problems. We earned trust, we took time, and we've done it one boy, one family, one community at a time. And it'll take us where it needs to take us so we know our model's scalable and we might end up all over Australia. And if we do, that's great, but that's not the be all and end all. We'll end up where we deserve to end up. And the reason we're thinking about going to more and more communities is because it'd be selfish of us not to try. You know, like, if we didn't go from one to two, then that second community would have missed out and now we're at 11. Well, why not do things and set this up so we can implement more change in more community? So I think it's just being true to yourself and not trying to be everything to everyone. [01:09:20] Speaker A: Absolutely, mate. And best of all, you're real, you're authentic, and as you keep saying, you're solving real problems, mate. So well done on what you're doing. Keep doing well done to your team as well. Keep impacting more lives and more communities. Thanks for being a fantastic guest on cultural leadership, buddy. [01:09:35] Speaker B: Thanks, Brandon. Cheers, mate. [01:09:36] Speaker A: These are my three key takeaways from my conversation with Adam. My first key takeaway. Confident leaders create clarity before they demand performance. They know unclear expectations kill results faster than lack of skill. So they set the vision, define success success in measurable terms and make sure every team member knows their role in achieving it. This isn't micromanaging, it's removing the fog so people can move with confidence and speed. My second key takeaway Confident leaders manage micromanagement with capability building. They don't just check work, they coach. They look for skill gaps, provide targeted feedback and give opportunity opportunities to grow. The result? A team that takes ownership, solves problems on their own and frees the leader to focus on bigger priorities. My third key takeaway Confident leaders model the behaviour they expect. They don't just talk about accountability, they live it. They show up prepared, follow through on commitments and own their mistakes. That example gives the team permission to do the same, which strengthens trust and lifts performance across the board. You can let me know your key takeaway on YouTube or @theculturalleadership. [01:10:53] Speaker B: Com. [01:10:54] Speaker A: Thanks for joining me. And remember, the best outcome is on the other side of a genuine conversation.